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Would reversing open mindedness close down a game?

Discussion in 'Dungeons & Dragons + Other RPGs' started by LKD, May 31, 2011.

  1. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    There is a 3.5 feat called "Open Minded" that gives you 5 skill points. To me, that says 1 feat = 5 skill points. Do you think it would unbalance a game to let characters spend 5 skill points for a feat? I have some thoughts but want to get unbiased opinions first.
     
  2. 8people

    8people 8 is just another way of looking at infinite ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG] I think it depends on the setting and if it is characterful. I think in many instances where it would be mostly used it would be unbalancing in a campaign setting with balance between sneaking, combat and talking as it means many characters would use the opportunity to be a bit one trick ponies.

    Could possibly make it a skill in itself like Speak Languages where after a certain number of points the DM provides a choice of feats that are appropriate for the player/character to choose based on how things have happened in the campaign so far. I personally think Skill points should be worth more though, I don't think it's an equal situation as posited by the feat Open Mind.
     
  3. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I think it could become unbalancing, especially for characters that aren't particularly skill dependent, like a fighter. That's a whole bunch of extra feats such a character will be able to pick up over his/her lifetime.

    Will the party's enemies also benefit from this perk? That might decide how balanced it ends up being in your game.

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 47 minutes and 49 seconds later... ----------

    Consider that a human fighter with 10 intelligence will accumulate 69 skill points over a 20 level progression (12 skills points at level 1 and 57 skill points over the course of levels 2 - 20).

    That's 13 extra feats over the course of 20 levels. And if he bumps his intelligence a bit, he can get even more.

    Okay, so he won't be all that intimidating due to a low intimidate skill, but who cares. The powergamer in me would go for the feats. The only saving grace is that I'm not sure there are even that many worthwhile feats to choose from, especially considering all the bonus feats a fighter receives anyways.

    My point is, it could get out control. If you're going to implement this, you might put a limit like it can only be used 4 times total, once between level 1-5, again between levels 6-10, again between levels 11-15 and a final time between level 16-20 -- or something along those lines.
     
  4. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    It would be unbalanced, yes. Because enemies don`t have that option. They would end up having alot less "firepower" than the party. Besides...if you play a halfling rogue, with a very high int score, you would get a feat per level (if you wish).
     
  5. Cap'n CJ

    Cap'n CJ Arrr! Veteran

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    In a combat heavy campaign it would be unbalanced. Not sure for a more social game.
     
  6. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    How about this for a combat oriented rogue with 18 Intelligence:
    That’s 13 skill points per level (8 for rogue, 4 for INT and 1 for Human) and 52 at level 1, or 299 skill points over 20 levels of experience.

    That character could take up fifty nine extra feats!!!! Yikes!

    That's obviously the other end of the extreme, but certainly possible.
     
  7. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    Even more feats if he puts his bonus points into INT. Then he would have 23 int....
     
  8. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Okay fine, that would be:

    Code:
    Level	Skill Points
    1	52
    2	13
    3	13
    4	13
    5	13
    6	13
    7	13
    8	14
    9	14
    10	14
    11	14
    12	14
    13	14
    14	14
    15	14
    16	15
    17	15
    18	15
    19	15
    [U]20	15[/U]
    	[B]317[/B]
    For a grand total of 63.4 extra feats!

    I take it back. This wouldn't be overpowered at all. :p
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  9. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Just limit the number of times any particular character can trade skill points for feats and you're fine.
     
  10. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    Here are some of the limits I was considering for this option. I wouldn't incorporate all of them necessarily, but tell me what you think:

    1: You couldn't select feats that have the fighter label. It'd have to be general feats only.

    2: The same thing goes for metamagic or item creation feats. No go.

    3: You couldn't select feats with pre-requisites. No feats requiring a minimum ability score, minimum ranks of a skill, minimum save bonuses, or a minimum character or class level.

    4: You can only do it in one shot, getting one feat per character level. Meaning that a character class with 2 or 4* skill points per level with 10 intelligence could never do it -- he couldn't invest 2 points at level 3, 2 points at level 4, and then 1 point at level five and finally get a feat. Also, a Rogue with 15 intelligence (10 skill points) could still only get one feat at any given level.

    5: Once you choose to use this option, you can't use it again for 3 (2, 4, 5?) character levels.

    Most of these are linked to the following idea. Basically, if there's a skill that you really want to improve as much as possible, you can buy the Skill Focus feat for it or one of the skill booster feats (like Athletic or Magical Aptitude). Or you can get a feat like Endurance, Toughness, Iron Will, Run, or the like. These feats improve your performance or resliency without turning you into an unbalanced character.

    This would keep a rogue from getting 20 extra combat feats over the course of his career, which would make him ridiculously bloody tough even despite his average BAB.

    Continue to enlighten me, my friends!

    * I suppose a Human with 4 points per level and 10 INT could do it, but whatever.
     
  11. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    All of these sound like reasonable restrictions. I would for sure include 1 and 2. 3 I'm rather ambivalent about. I guess this would exclude feats like the greater two weapon fighting line, which makes sense. I just can't think of a lot of other feats off the top of my head with these restrictions.

    Regarding point 4, I like the requirement of having to have sufficient skill points to purchase the feat during the level that it is acquired. Nearly all characters would be able to use it at level 1 (unless you choose to restrict that), but only characters that are more skillfull and/or of greater intelligence can use it. This limits the non skill oriented classes from simply loading up on feats instead, unless they've invested in their intelligence a bit. So it becomes a perk for the skillfull and/or those of above average intelligence. I like that twist.

    Regarding point 5, I'm still partial to once between levels 1 - 5, again between levels 6 - 10, again between levels 11 - 15 and again between levels 16 - 20. If a character does not take the feats during these levels they lose the opportunity (avoid a character suddenly getting 4 extra feats at level 16).

    All in all, I think you've come up with a nice set of restrictions to make this a balanced alternative.
     
  12. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I haven't read the feat, but what you describe above is a one-way road. A character spends a feat to gain 5 skill points, not spend 5 skill points to gain a feat. What is the exact wording of the feat? Does Wotc have a published or posted ruling on it?
     
  13. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    The feat as written in Complete Adventurer (and, IIRC, The Expanded Psionics Handbook) is a one way street. My thought is more along the lines of introducing a house rule -- if you made it into a two way street, would it destroy the game?
     
  14. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Yes. It would. It is an unbalancing mechanic. Feats should be limited. It gives more of a tactical advantage to those classes that get more Skill points. Rogues would be vastly improved combat-wise....
     
  15. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    BoV, have you read the restrictions that LKD is considering? They really won't allow for combat based feats, and with the limitations on the number of times this can be used (again which is discussed in this thread) I don't see how a rogue will be vastly improved combat wise.

    They could get a total of 4 extra, primarily non-combat feats over 20 levels. I don't see anything "vast" about about the combat improvements. They would likely be improved, at the expense of some skills, but that's sort of the point of what LKD's going for I think.
     
  16. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I was referring to the trading of 5 skills for a feat in general, as the post I quoted didn't refer to limitations, yet. Now seeing his limitation list, I do agree it would be less gamebreaking with eliminating figher feats, allowing this option only once per so many levels, etc... I actually like it for the Wizard. Their high INT will give them a chance for some feats they normally don't get to take due to the lack of feat choices, like Toughness, Dodge, etc..
     
  17. Master of Nuhn

    Master of Nuhn Wear it like a crown Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Mmm... Feats are rather powerful. There's a reason you only get them only every 3 levels. Wizards and fighters get some more, but can only choose ones from their genre: casting and fighting. Perhaps you can restrict them to some feats and only once every number of levels (say 5 or so), perhaps even rule in some prerequisites.

    Interesting thought, btw! :)
    I sometimes see see feats mentioned as prerequisites and than I think "Oh no. That feat has no influence on my character in this setting, with my DM" Like Endurance. At times like that, I like to trade in some things.

    I thought I read somewhere that a feat is equivalent to 9 skill points. Can't remember where I read that, though. Perhaps I'm confused and just mix stuff up with the AGOT rules...
     
  18. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    This thread isn't that long, but it seems like recent posters are only reading the first post, and then responding. The conversation has evolved since then. :p

    Here's a relevant post from LKD that, at a minimum should be read before responding to the first post:
    It has already been addressed numerous times that limits need to be placed on how often this could be used, and LKD has already agreed that they are needed.

    So comments like this aren't moving the discussion forward in any way:
    Just saying.
     
  19. Master of Nuhn

    Master of Nuhn Wear it like a crown Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Agreed! You must be a real douchebag if you come up with posts like that after such a clear set of rules!
    /hangs head in shame. :o
    I usually hate it when people don't read thoroughly. Now look who's talking. :doh: But hey! I learned something 'bout myself. So that's nice. Still not contributing to the conversation, though. :s

    I think tough rules are in need. So I say yes to them all and only once per 5 levels and not at character level 1. Some already get multiple feats at level one, which can be used as a prereq at that same level, too. This could lead to too much starting feats. A quick start for someone who needs them as prerequisites. Or, if you want it to be allowed at level 1, you could make a rule that you can choose these feats only after choosing your regular feats, so you can't use the feats as a prerequisite.

    An other rule might be this:
    Every time you are allowed to increase a stat because of level progression (4th, 8th, etc), you can choose a feat in stead. You must still meet all the prerequisites.

    Tough but simple, I guess.

    Not too interesting if your looking for skill increasing feats, though...
     
  20. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    [​IMG]

    Yes your benevolence...

    Would his oh so holy lordship please advise all of us wrong-doers of any other rule chagnes on how we are to post and converse with people on SP. We didn't realize that the rules stated such as you have directed us to do. Please advise us lowly heathens of any other issues he has with our posts as well and we will make all such efforts to rectify the issue to please his holiness. Then maybe, just maybe, his holiness will allow us to continue to converse with and bask in his know-all glory.

    Just saying....


    On topic, MoN, I believe you are correct as I have read back in the day (an article in Dragon Magazine if I remember correctly) that the 3.0 designers felt that Feats are much more powerful than Skills and should be limited as to not upset the balance of the game mechanics. Whether they were right is another story. Though I am sure they tested it prior to releasing the game. I think LKDs idea is a good one. That is what makes each gaming group unique, the various home-made changes to the system used to make for a better game for all is the way to go whe RPGing, IMO.
     
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