Women and the glass ceiling

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Guys, you do realise that when you're saying "nationwide" you're talking about different countries? I've not looked at the statistics in either but the discrepancy between the averages may not be the same in the US and in Canada.

 

I understand that, Ziad. I also want to point out thnat many professional jobs in both countries (like teaching, to use my example) use a grid to determine wages, with factors like experience and education being the determiners. Gender has nothing to do with it.

 

In my (very limited) experience, pay differences don't start to manifest until the women in question start having children. Of course, I don't pretend for a second that my work experience is a statistically reliable survey.

 

With the enactment of regulations to ensure pay equality it can be pretty hard to tell if there's inequality because of gender discrimination. It's far too easy for an incompetent woman to complain of discrimination if she's underpaid when the simple truth could be that she's just not as good. On the other hand, male bosses can still get away with discrimination by using an imaginary difference in experience or competence as an excuse. It's easy to think of theoretical cases where the man and the woman would have identical credentials, references, experience, etc, but in real life this kind of thing never happens. I've had a colleague complain that she got treated less well than I did because she was a woman, but (and that's something I would never tell her, because then she would have accused me of being sexist) she just wasn't very good at her job. Case in point: the best-regarded person in the group was the other woman (who, it has to be said, was the best and most hard-working by far and clearly deserved all the praise she got). Naturally the unhappy colleague never thought to compare herself (or me for that matter) to the good one, which would have shown that gender (in)equality had nothing to do with it.

 

And that's my point -- I used my hypothetical to illustrate that sometimes, some of these women play the sexist card when it is very clear no sexism occurred. Your scenario is another excellent one in that if she were to look at all the facts, she would realize that it's her own uselessness that's costing her the promotion and not sexism.

 

Just a reference to something on the previous page about women choosing when to be treated differently - Women and men are inherently different, generally men have less physical drawbacks and some women need these taken into account in their place of work - however - having extra consideration is different to being treated differently. It can be unsettling when you enter a room and guys who had been joking about go quiet, or talk to you completely different, or below eyeline In general in most circles I will get treated just as one of the guys, but sometimes if there is a new person around or one of the regulars will make a comment such as "You shouldn't say things like that around the young lady" or "sorry, I keep forgetting your a woman" that the atmosphere suddenly takes a change. Even some ridiculous laws make the difference obvious - I am not supposed to ever be alone in a room with a male lecturer, for example. I have had to wait over an hour to take exams where I am in isolation because the only invigilator available is a guy and it's not the done thing.

I do hate it when chicks take the mick though, seriously, crying sexism at every turn is irritating, just as when crips do the same about their disability. I'm of the strong opinion if a woman can't get over her own breasts she shouldn't expect others to either.

On the flip-side - men will utilise everything they have in their position of work to ensure their place in a workforce and potential to advance in their career - women have been given their gender as a tool - quotas. Now I check a few boxes myself so probably shouldn't bash the system but while I understand the necessity of ensuring equality in a workplace, companies need to be able to prioritise capabilities of the workforce. Perhaps name, gender and ethnicity should only be revealed in later stages of employment or external ajudicators involved in recruitment processes. I do not know the finer details of employment laws of personal prejudice within many systems, especially of those outside the UK.

By defining, however, the need to distinguish "we need to employ three men and two women" there will always be an enforced gender gap, however innocently intended that is simply ingrained into the corporation. By making a number of women necessary also empowers the ethos of 'what else do I have the right to?' or the false sense of untouchable security lends to arrogance and superiority to some, while some may feel the sense of "am I only here because I'm a woman?" and be more sensitive to comments (have met a couple of instances of this, though I am not attempting to portray this as common)

 

They already do. Besides, they have no need of having a penis. By having a vagina, they can get as many penises as they want...

 

Gendered insults for the win.

 

I gendered the insults because she has the appropriate gender, and the discussion is about some women using their gender as an excuse to whine about things that happen to everyone, not just women (things like not getting promotions or being treated poorly at work -- newsflash sisters, it happens to everyone!)

Also, because I hate Roxanne more than almost anyone else on the planet.

 

If I used racial insults to describe some tools, and then said this in my defense when you called me on it, what would your response be?

 

I believe that the appropriate response would be "touche", though sadly this system doesn't let me get the "E" with the little French accent on it.

That said, I find that insults based on gender tend to be more commonplace and acceptable for use by society in general than racial ones. But in an ideal world, they wouldn't be, so I concede the point.

That won't stop me from using them with regards to Roxanne, though!

 

Okay then

 

Did Roxanne put on the red light?


[BOOOOOO!!!! - dmc]

 

It's funny you mentione that -- when a radio station came and broadcast from our restaurant, we asked them to play that song and dedicated it to "our manager Roxanne".

I was also thinking about the words I used for her, and most of them described her behaviour -- she was a slut, she slept around big time, and she used her sexuality for $$ and workplace advantage, which falls into my definition of whore.

So the only one I used that was a truly vicious and totally sexist (not related to behaviour but rather to her identity, which cannot be changed and therefore should not be insulted) was "cow". I take back the "cow" and replace it with "<female dog>", which describes her actions, behaviour, and personality, all of which things are, IMHO, fair game for insults.

 

No, really LKD, tell us how you really feel. Don't hold back now...

 

I just used the same comment on Chandos as Blades did in another thread (prior to seeing Blades comment so I'm not a total copycat), but yeah, I gotta ditto it here too. LKD, do you have anger management issues - I have never seen you spout such venom for anyone like this.

 

To be honest, I rather enjoy LKD's takes and perspectives, they got some real entertainment value.

 

Oh, I have anger management techniques -- it's just that sometimes it boils over. I have a fair amount of anger towards a number of people, not all of whom are female. To be honest, there are some days that I want to pull a stunt like Disciple of the Watch narrated in another thread (you all remember, where he used his wallet chain to throttle a bully when he was in high school) but I was raised under such strict rules of behaviour and discipline that I could never do something that drastic. I'll tell you another time what I DID do to Roxanne, though -- and lest anyone start for the phone, it wasn't anything even remotely illegal, so relax. It did make her cry though. She deserved it, though. I don't like liars or cheats of any stripe.

 

My current job is a perfect example of still existing wage discrimination. Two of us were hired, me and Tim. He was hired at $4 an hour higher than me, and we had the same experience/credentials (we were both students pursuing the same degree). When he found out what I was getting paid, we both went to our supervisor and asked why. We never got a clear answer, but my pay rate was corrected to match his.
I'll still bail when I find a new job however, as the matter did leave a rather bad taste in my mouth.

 

Your example seems clear cut, Stefanina. I am shocked that blatant BS like that still happens in our supposedly "enlightened" society.