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Wisconsin Gov. Walker Threatens To Deploy National Guard Against Unions

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Ragusa, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Walker has offered a compromise.

    Full story.
     
  2. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    I'm no professional negotiator, but if you want people to accept a hit for the team, then you need to make it clear that EVERYONE is going to make similar sacrifices, or they simply won't buy into it. It's that simple. If the guy was proposing pay cuts for ALL government employees, including himself, and cutting spending across the board, people might be inclined to listen to him. As it stands now, he seems to be focussing only on Unions, trying to blame them for all of society's ills. Not a good plan.
     
  3. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    Not every state employee gets Union representation, so I think this is actually a reasonable starting point for debate. If Walker is willing extend the cuts to the Republican friendly police and fire departments as well, I think a deal can be cut. Government bureaucrats with no union representation shouldn't be forced to face new cuts, since their pay and benefits probably aren't as good to begin with.
     
  4. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    It's actually a good bargaining strategy too... If you start by asking for more than what you're eventually willing to accept, you look like the good guy when you offer a compromise solution, which is probably more along the lines of what you were willing to accept all along. Plus, it makes it harder for the Democrats there not to take it, as the governor can now say he offered some concessions back to them.
     
  5. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    Absolutely, but the democrats would be wise to cast this compromise as a starting point for debate rather than the end of it. It would be folly for them to accept this at face value, and Walker has already lost a lot of face. He can't afford to "lose" this one, so the Democrats can extract quite a few more concessions from him on this one, especially since Walker already admitted once that he was not above tricking them into coming to the table. When the dust settles, Walker will end up with less than he would have gotten had his initial proposal been more reasonable.
     
  6. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Wisconsin Senate leader admits union-busting bill is about defeating Obama

    Right.

    For good measure the Republican dominated assembly introduced a bill to prohibit telephone callers from lying about their identity as well as giving a false number, subject to a $10,000 fine. The Wisconsin legislators said that “while the use of spoofing is said to have some legitimate uses, it could also be used to frighten, harass and potentially defraud.” They insisted the proposal was unrelated to last week’s now-viral prank call to Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, who then spoke from his heart of hearts assuming to speak to one of his major campaign donors.

    Right.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2015
  7. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    There will be no compromise!

    Tricksy Tricksy Republicans.

    Turns out there won't be a compromise afterall. Under Wisconsin law, a quarum is only required for bills that spend money. The Republicans stipped all the spending out of the bill, kept all of the union busting suff in, and passed it late last night. ([sarcasm]There are unconfirmed reports that they flipped off the 14 absentee Democratic Senators too! [/sarcasm]

    Here's the full story.

    Governor Walker got EXACTLY what he wanted.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  8. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    The guy is a cold hearted douche, and I would hazard that this isn't over -- people are just going to quit from jobs where their right to collective bargaining for important issues has been stripped away. I predict a sizeable percentage of people will quit, and a smaller percentage will leave Wisconsin within a few years. Then what will he do?

    That said, you kinda gotta admire the guy's political acumen. Stripping out the $ element and outmaneuvering the absentee Democratic Senators was a pretty Machiavellian move.
     
  9. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Yes, but this might be an example of it being not so much about what he did, but how he did it. Pulling an end around like this is near certain to piss a lot of people off. The strange thing about elections, is that you typically motivate more turnout from groups you piss off, than motivate turnout from groups you make happy. And in that regard, there may be political hell to pay, especially in a state like Wisconsin, which has the ability to recall state representatives and senators.
     
  10. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    Republicans in Wisconsin will regret this in 2012. That was incredibly stupid.
     
  11. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I don't really see the difference. The Democrats pulled a maneuver by leaving the state so they wouldn't be forced to vote and lose. The Republicans countered that maneuver with one of their own. What's to be pissed about? Well, other than something passing that you may not have wanted passed, but that was inevitable anyway.
     
    The Great Snook likes this.
  12. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    BTA,
    reading your last post one can get the impression this is some kind of spectator sport. It isn't. Wisconsin workers lost their collective bargaining rights, and the GOP managed to, quite ruthlessly, co-opt the political process to hobble their political opponent under the pretext of a provoked (and probably unnecessary) budget crisis, that for Wisconsin's citizens (including Republicans) will also result in other public services being (probably needlessly) curtailed while their taxes remain as they are whereas GOP donor's taxes were generously cut.

    It doesn't matter that D's do it too (actually, I haven't seen them pulling off anything remotely similar in the entire time I follow US politics) and that this time the Republican team won - gee, I can't wait to see how the rematch turns out ... popcorn please!

    The damage caused is real and lasting. Walker pulled a really nasty and crooked trick off, and hopefully he and his goons are to pay a political price for his ratf*cking. They have been open enough about it.
     
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  13. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I think you misunderstand. The quote I was responding to said people are going to be pissed because the Republicans pulled this latest maneuver. I'm saying why would they be any more pissed at that than the fact that the vote result was inevitable.

    As to the "damage" caused, I'm glad the public employee unions in Wisconsin have gotten reamed only in the hope that the same will happen in California.
     
  14. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    It's just like the Dems and health care. People were't particularly pissed off about the bill [Hell, I don't think half of them knew what was in it] but the way in which it was done. They didn't like the Dems ramming it through in the manner they did, and the Dems paid for it in 2010. Most people don't like overreaching. You can expect the same for the Republicans in the recall elections, and the 2012 elections. I figured if given enough rope Walker and the Republicans would eventually hang themselves.

    The thing is, the Dems, the unions and liberals shouldn't overreact. That would be a mistake. They should just let the Repubilcans, at least in Wisconsin, show themselves for what they are. They also passed a law against prank phone calls. They are so transparent. :lol:
     
  15. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Be careful what you wish for. They might just have something entirely different in mind with that than you do.

    NOG,
    to allow myself a moment of vindication here: Your protestations that I only see Republicans in the worst possible light notwithstanding, this turned out every bit as nasty as I said it would be, if not a tad more Machiavellian. Prompting me to question how realistic your assessment of Republican politics is.
     
  16. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


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    Perhaps. I think the anti-union move was a ploy to defund future Democratic candidates - we have to see how successful it is at that before we judge its overall political benefits.
     
  17. Register Gems: 29/31
    Latest gem: Glittering Beljuril


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    The senate leader in the video linked above admitted it was about defunding candidates. The Republican party isn't about making US a better place to live, it's about making it ruled by Republicans.
     
  18. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    Of late it has appeared that the republicans have been putting power over platform, but let's not forget that the party has more than its share of genuine true believers. Those true believers also exist within our electorate -- if they didn't, the republicans would not be in power. A great many republicans, many of whom are poor or middle class, oppose unions. We can argue about whether or not this is a good things or whether it makes any sense, but we can't argue that those true believers don't exist. I think Wisconsin republicans have sorely miscalculated on this count -- even more union money will flow into the state as a result of this measure and union voters have longer memories than most. Had they stepped up to the table, it would have been a win for everyone, and the concessions in collective bargaining rights would have lasted. The way this has gone down, the republicans will not only lose their majorities in Wisconsin, but will see a prompt reversal as soon as Walker is ousted (and he will be ousted). Walker just led Wisconsin republicans over a cliff.
     
  19. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    But Democrats do that, too! This is just the other side of the story!

    Actually, they don't and it isn't.

    Yes, all parties try to achieve power and keep to it. So far, so trivial.

    Democrats today are not nearly as aggressive or successful at obstructing or defunding their political opponents (think ACORN, Unions, etc), or at purging ballots ('integrity of the vote' to make it more difficult for new (i.e. young and more likely to vote Democrat; ACORN was primarily a problem because they undertook the effort to register for the vote Blacks and other minorities likely to vote Democrat). In a sense, the Democrats still, think this is a fair fight. It isn't. The Republicans have long abandoned that idea and try to rig the system to achieve their majorities. So far they appear to achieve that objective.

    Hobble the opposition, maximise the own voter output through polarisation, sue and recount if necessary.

    The R's today use the same bad old Southern Tactics that deservedly gave Democratic campaigning in the US a bad name. That is only plausible, considering the shift in orientation away from the D's to the R's in the Southern States - never mind the party switch, the people and the political climate remained the same, and so did their methods.

    With shrinking margins these methods can make up the difference, that half percent that make a majority. In that sense, Drew, the aforementioned Gallup poll suggests that, even with a die hard core, the GOP is actually losing constituents, in turn suggesting that we will see more of these tactics. They thus should be expected as a GOP SOP, especially in swing states.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2011
  20. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    Absolutely, but such tricks only work for so long before voters begin to recognize them for what they are (which can admittedly take decades). The tactic is already starting to fray and will ultimately stop working entirely for a short time. It will, of course, never fully backfire -- by the time voters have caught on, the republicans will have moved onto something else.
     
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