Why that particular religion?

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I am an atheist, and so because I have seen no God, or proof of him and no disproof, maybe that makes me agnostic, then I am an agnostic, label me and shove me in the agnostic-room if you want to.

I believe that the human is an egoistic being, same reason why I am an atheist or agnostic, I could always link an action to a personal desire, and flowing from that comes the believe that free will is an illusion, because if people are egoistic, then they would always take what they percieve as the most egoistic option, which only leaves one choice, and then it would not even be a choice but just an impulse.

 

I am a non-believer simply because no belief system makes sense. Most of them have in general rather nice morals and on the surface atleast they look rather benign. I dont understand why people insist on dragging divinity into things.

There may or may not be some kind of divine, a grand architect of the universe but I very very, very very much doubt it that that being came here and chatted with some desert nomad two thousand years ago, or lived on a mountain top in Greece in the ancient times, or had one eye and two ravens, or tossed a mountain to some merchant it just seems extremely silly and rather petty for a grand architect to focus on one of billions of billions of planets, then focus some more to a certain person or people, and then even get into what they should and shouldnt do. For me it is so silly that it baffles me that sensible intelligent people believe in it. Religion serves one purpose and that might be enough to justify its existence and it is that it is a balm and comfort for people, it gives them certainity and the safety of believing in a greater scheme. To say it bluntly I see it as a self-medicine for people who are not able to cope with the harshness and pointlessness that is reality. Some people use drugs, some drink, some gamble, some pray and some more than one. All in my opinion cause they cant cope with the universe and life in general.

I think am going to go put on my flamerepellant suit here. I guess it is too late to say I mean no offense?

 

Well, actually, I have no problems with the above statement In fact thinking of Christian scientists getting appendicits always brings a smile to my face...

But seriously folks, I find that my reasons for being an atheist are twofold. One is why I don't belong to a particular religion - which could be summarised by what most people said - the environment they grew up in and the religious convictions of parents (two atheists in my case).

The other is a basic disbelief (or indifference) to the existance of god. As GM said;

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I too have an overwhelming desire for everything to make sense. However, it is not satisfied with explanations that involve the will of a higher being (be it god, parent, teacher, dictator, expert in the particular scientific field, whatever). Such explanations make sense if you adopt certain postulates (e.g. existance of god) - but then they explain everything. Evolution is a very good example (just an example - so don't get hung up on it).

Evolution and natural selection offer an explanation of the diversity of life around us. Shock, horror - it is not perfect and does not explain everything! It is however, backed up by a HUGE but FINITE supply of evidence, proof and logic.

On the other hand, creationism easily explains EVERYTHING about the living world. It is easily proven too - provided that existance of god is accepted as an axiom - a self-evident and unprovable statement (and forced by faith).

If the latter theory is true- than that's it. Over, no more, go home, lets talk about something else. It solves the problem with no effort or logical input. And is worth precisely nothing. It doesn't explain anything, it just explains it away - it amounts to answering 'because' to the question 'why'.

And this is what the example was supposed to illustrate. A desire in me to understand things is not to understand at all costs: belief does not enter into it.

 

Hmmm, but if I DO care what everyone else believes, AND I think those beliefs are silly, then should I go on a crusade to convert everybody to my non-belief, just so that I don't get accused of selfish indifference. Everyone is entitled to their free will and that includes their right to believe in something silly, even if it might cause them some harm (I'm not saying that it does, mind you), so long as it doesn't harm ME.

I don't think that is being selfish or indifferent, it's just another way of saying 'do unot others as you would have them do unto you'.

 

Um...no. Suppose we get into a raging argument about whether Baldur's Gate was designed by BIS, or bubbled up from the internet. There's lots of evidence that it bubbled up - it is VERY closely related to other games, it uses many of the same programming tools, it boils down to the same ones and zeroes, it has lots of bugs and patches that suggest a dynamic, evolutionary design, etc. etc.

But if I confidently insist that the game has a designer - and point to other evidence, like the credits (easily falsifiable by predatory hackers) or patches (perhaps spontaneously generated) or storyline (perhaps our arbitrary assignment of meaning to a chance arrangement of encounters) - that doesn't diminish my appreciation of the game. Quite the contrary - once I've stopped worrying about who made it, I can start actually PLAYING the game. And yeah, it's an all-encompassing idea that "easily explains EVERYTHING" about the game. But that's only because it's true.

And that's why Christians have more fun!

Exactly. As is rarely noted, when Christ said His oft-quoted Golden Rule - "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you" - He was talking to His disciples, not non-believers. So the Golden Rule has completely different interpretations depending on who is the actor. For the non-religious (or "incompletely religious", to put it more subtly), who interpret harm and benefits differently from Christians, the Golden Rule translates into leaving others alone since that's what they want for themselves.

Can't blame me for interpreting it according to my own cherished beliefs! C'mon, everybody, tolerate my intolerance!

 

I wouldn't say I have a hard-and-fast belief system that I subscribe to. I was raised with the Uniting Christian Church (and later suffered through an Anglican school system which paid lip service to spirituality). Personally, I don't think it matters what faith or sect a person belongs to, so long as the basic message is sound. The basic principles of Christianity are (to me, at least) simple and wonderful: be kind and thoughtful with each other, judge not lest ye be judged, promote peace and community rather than hostility, forgive the past but do not forget it, do what is good for its own sake, and live as you wish within the boundaries you have set but do not forget that you are part of the world and must be mindful of what is around you. In short, it's mostly about respect, kindness, humility and (dare I say it) humanity.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the basis of Christianity. What ****** me off about it is the factioning and ceremonial dressing everything gets, and pompous, sanctimonious people who seem to think that being devout automatically means being a good, "deserving" person. I don't know if there really is a God, but if he's as wonderful as everyone says, then surely a person should be judged more for their actions and the way they lived their life than whether they chanted hymns of praise and prayed out of hope, desperation or fear.

 

I was simply trying to point out why I am not religious. While having everything explained and neat and tidy and clear is fun for some (like yourself) it most certainly isn't for me.

A computer parallel (if you insist): It's like preferring MS-DOS to windows. Windows is nice and shiny with everything complicated neatly tucked away. DOS was tough and rough and you needed to be immersed in the knowledge of it to make it work. Unix here I come...


[off topic: the badlur's gate parallel would be more apt if you were also claiming that there is only one game designer and he designed all the games past, present and future. In a week.]

[ July 14, 2004, 10:12: Message edited by: Vukodlak ]

 

I dont belive in god and I never have. imo "god" was made up back in the days when people lived in caves and needed an explaination why there was thunder (gods wrath) and something to sacrifice to in order to get better luck in hunt or better crops.
These days, we have scientific explainations for that, rendering "gods" useless.

Only thing I have a hard time understanding, is how the universe was created: Where did the energy and particles that spawned the whole thing come from, and why?


I also belive in life (both intelligent and non-intelligent) on other planets, simply because we CANT be alone in a universe as big as this.

 

That is exactly why I have never bin part of the any Christian Church. The message in the bible, I think is clear, Be kind and don't judge people, Nobody is perfect so we all depend on gods judgement. I mean I like that message, salvation shouldn't come trough how often you go to church or how "Christian" you live. it should come through your actions.

 

@GM - I did write a couple of long paragraphs here about what I thought, then I saw Harbourboy had written as well, and had been much more concise. Damn.

Essentially, in my own tired, muddled, not-really-awake-yet way, I'm agreeing with Harbourboy.

It seems, though, that everything has a different interpretation according to who you talk to. Ah, makes conversation more interesting and thought-provoking, at any rate.

@Bahir - how can you prove this? Probability's all well and good, until you roll a D6 600 times and find you have significantly less 5s than you expected...

 

@Midwinter: In the Church itself sooner than in the dogma or in moral tenets. Though still, even those. I'm defiant and unwilling to accept something as good or bad because someone feels as if it were so. That's because I have my conscience as well and people have equally been given conscience to police themselves. However, for all arguments I would bring up, there would have been answers given hmm... two or two and half again a thousand years ago? It's not as if all my questions had been answered or all my doubts dispelt. I have questions, I have doubts like anyone. No one really is different here.

@Equester: There are many things quite clearly said in the Bible that Christian Churches preach that quite upset the audience at times.

Still, you practically have contained the whole religion in one sentence. Except one: love thy lord God, and love thy neighbour. Love God with all your strength and all your soul, love your neighbour as yourself. This clearly says God takes precedence, although those two are linked: one can't really love God in heaven whom he can't see if he doesn't love his brother ("brother" was loose in that time - it meant a kinsman, or sometimes had the same meaning as neighbour) whom he sees.

 

My family made me Catolico Apostolico Romano, they sent me to do catesismo (sorry, don't know the english word); the priest taught some things, he even made us read the bible, I did that, 3 times, and never understood many things that are differents: the priest say something but bible other.
I always asked why they asked us for money, they said that so they can give to the poors...
Some day in one of those class the priest was telling us that Queen is a satanic group, we CAN'T listen to them because one of the songs has a satanic message. Back then, I had that LP, knowing some english and with the help of my grandpa I translated the song (Another one bites the dust)gave it to the priest and ask him explain to me the "satanic message"... he just said that I was too little to understand...
Next class he insisted with Queen, back then, they made a concert and donated the money to the starving children in Africa, I had the article in a newspaper so I present the evidence and asked why they do that while the Vatican never did that while they live in a house of gold like, why the cup is made of gold while you and the bible told us that Jesus never used something like that and instead he used a wooden cup?
Anyway, since those days, I hardly believe in a religion, I see them like an enterprise that just want to make money like any other business; here where I live, a very small town, a month ago, there was this church, Testigos de Jehova, they demolished down the church just to make another even bigger, too much for this town, very "lujosa", so is another church from other religion; you can hear them claiming to the govermment to spend more money on poors but you never see/hear them doing something even like it but you see them act like those BG churchs, making statues (the Bible told us that Jesus never liked that we were praying to those "images"). Why priest (sacerdotes) can't marrie? according to the Bible, every apostol had wife, so why not now?
So, while I grow up, learnt things, saw things, my belief in a religion was dying, and each day forward I start to see things in a cientific way.
But this is of course just my point of view, is just the way I see things, I guess I just leave religion because the lack of answers to my questions.

 

I prefer to be considered non-denominational for many reasons.
My personality is a more or less neutral type, I am very unjudgemental and mostly a 'peacekeeper', under most conditions, and with most 'religions', there is usually some form of condemnation.

I was burned by the christian church at 15, was very painful, but even through that, I managed to keep my faith, though I had/have no interest in anyone telling me things like: "If you do not join our church, and worship as we do, you will burn!!!" or "You cannot be a christian if you do not worship as we do!!!", etc....

I am also not a legalist, I am not willing to say everything you do is bad, and will send you to everlasting burning, though I do believe there are things you should avoid, but just because a person falls a few times, doesn't mean they are evil!!!

All in all, I at least have joy in knowing I am able to communicate with many others, and that I can be comfortable with them on nearly any level, and can love another as a brother/sister reguardless of their personal preferences, and have even(through gentle, not fire and brimstone means) brought understanding to some that once condemned christianity.

And lastly, IMO, to condemn another merely for religious purpose is to ignore the fact that that person is still considered a brother/sister to you, and can greatly benefit you since they are still human, and to condemn them is to condemn God's work, and Jesus's sacrifice to us.

 

@Seayer: Yes... I agree on most, if not all, of what you said. Throughout various denominations things are different, and I don't really know much about some of them, however, as a Catholic I believe that God doesn't condemn people. It takes people to condemn themselves by deciding that they are beyond salvation. Neither will anyone burn for not being a Catholic, or not being a Christian. In fact, the Catholic Church believes it's not established whether absolute eternal condemnation in hell will be anyone's fate at all. It's only important that this doesn't leave anyone free to do as he pleases without any consequences. How it will work out no one knows. God in His wisdom will sort that out in the right time.

 

I am agnostic-atheist when it comes to God(s)(I do not believe in any and do not believe humans can have knowledge of God so the question of whether he exists is pointless).

I am areligious also(no religious beliefs).

The two are not intertwined.


Contrary to what DHB said in an earlier post, atheists who do not bother reading the Bible or studying any religions are all too common. In fact everyone here and in the whole world was born one! One can be an atheist without being a philosophical or critical atheist(as George Smith labeled IIRC).
Also, atheists CAN be quite religious or completely lack any religion(I am of the latter) but the word itself has nothing to say about religion.

As Charles Fiterman is wont to say :Words shift meaning with context and usages, speaker and audience.

When it comes to supernatural deities who do 'miraculous' things, I am an atheist because I do not believe such things exist.

When it comes to divine emporers like Kim Jong Il or Gaius Ceaser, I am an atheist because I do not willingly WORSHIP such things as gods. No being deserving of worship would want it.


RQ

 

What a fascinating thread! I am a Mormon for many reasons. I grew up in a Mormon household, and so that was part of it, however, inorder to be a good Mormon you cannot just sit around -- it takes devotion, and that means you have got to fully convert in your heart. So I studied, and that helped, but there has to be more, and so I did a lot of soul searching and praying and felt that being LDS (not lsd, for those druggies out there) was what the Lord wanted me to do. This presupposes his existence, of course, and faith has been liberally discussed here before, but I'll just finish off by saying that I know a lot of religious people who are quite intelligent, they are not morons who need a crutch, as someone intimated.

 

Well, myself, I am a protestant, a veeeery liberal one on all issues except that I agree on that women shouldn't be leeched like they are today. I don't mean that they should stay home and cook, men and women should share that responsibility alike, however.


I was a grown up christian until I was 13, I then started to smoke, drink, and get into knife-fights and more often than not beated someone up with a pipe a pair of homemade nunchakus. Hell, I am even on a first-name-basis with one of the local officers in my former hometown. After 3 years I moved from my mom to my father's place after my stepfather had beaten me up one time too many and I threatened to slit his throat while he was asleep.

When I moved to my father I got into contact to the local curch and soon they got me stucked. ( ) I soon got together with my girflfriend and I have been together with her and a member of the curch for almost 1.5 years now.

Hmm, a bit off-topic there.

Also, on the subject that some people believe that religous people are nothing but nubnuts. I consider myself not very smart but actually far from dumb and a lot of friends in curch have top grades, or close to it.

Hmm, can't get really on topic. Harder than you may think.

I am a Protestant because I have looked upon other religions and faiths and for me the only one that seems to actually have happened, the evolutionary religion included, and since all those miracles and happening have happened, who can not believe that He is not responsible.

John 3:16
Non Plus Ultra

 

Christian - Protestant - 'Reformed' - 'Liberated (?)'

For the Dutch ones among us: Gereformeerd Vrijgemaakt. Many people think that we think that our church is the only true church, but I oppose that. There is only one church (Church is from Curios: "of the Lord"), and it's not bound to our laws or peoples opinions, but to Gods love and our faith. (I rather speak of 'faith' then 'religion')

I want to change my title (not nick) to something more understandable, because many people don't have any clue what 'Priest-King of Salem' means.

I should come to this Alley more often. I wanted to start a similar thread, but checked if there was a recent one. Thank you Search-button.

 

I'm Zen Buddhist and have been officially you could say for about 2 years now. I was born to a Protestant family but my parents never forced me to be Protestant or to go to church. That's something I will always be grateful for.

For the longest time I was a spiritual shopper you could say. I went to Sunday school for a bit and had religion class in elementary school. As I got older I started to question my beliefs, teachings and the world around me.

After studying the many different religions available I found that I was most in tune with Zen Buddhism and that it struck a chord with me. Buddhism to me is not really a religion though. Religion to me involves the worshipping of a deity or supreme being, and in my teachings The Buddha is just a man who found awareness.

Although while I see where Aldeth was coming from,I do have to slightly disagree with him when he said that religion is ethnic. While we do learn it from our parents in the beginning I feel religion is more personal. While people may share similar beliefs we each worship or practice our beliefs in a way that only we can individually.

In my experience despite subscribing to a certain group, I've taken the best of all beliefs and have used them to make myself the best person I can be. Love your fellow human beings, don't kill, don't steal, have compassion for all living things...but in the end isn't that all we can do?

 

I was born into a Christian family but not into any particular church. The King James' Bible was read. Christmas was celebrated. I was left to choose my own church. At one time I was deeply involved with the Episcopal (Anglican) Church. I have studied and explored various religious beliefs. I am no longer involved with any organized religion.

I believe the following:

1) God exists.
2) Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I believe that should be taken literally. It also turns up in most major religious creeds in one form or another.
3) Judge not lest you be judged for as you judge so shall you be judged. In other words be careful in making your judgements. We all make them. We have to in order to survive.


Spirituality and religion are not the same thing. You can be spiritual without being religious and religious without being spiritual.