Where does DAO rate as a CRPG for you?

Remove all ads!

What has changed since BG1, BG2, and NWN OC have been released is the enhancements to 3D/Polygon gaming and it is the development of in game movies. Instead of spending hours on hours reading the in game text you get to watch a well craft (hopefully) movie.

What I like about DAO is that the movies are extremely well crafted and if you really want to spend hours reading in game text it is also there for those who are interested.

I just started my 5th play through with a dwarf commoner and below are my thought how the game would behave if each area had specific monsters instead of the gaming auto leveling the monsters based on the PC level.

1) The game would be more linear because the higher level areas would really push lower level players to follow the linear level path

2) Ozzamar and Dalish Elves areas would contain higher level monsters than other areas because from my mutiple play it seems like those areas should be completed last.

3) Red Cliffe would be super easy for anyone who completes Ozzamar or Dalish Elves area first

4) For DLC content would Bioware develop them for higher level characters or mid-level characters?

5) If you did complete the harder areas first would you have less or more XP when you reach the end of the game?

6) Would we as players complain that the game doesn't auto-level the monsters accordingly?

Bioware had a choice and that was to make the game more linear or to allow players a little more freedom but with the monsters being auto leveled based on the PC level.

I personally am gratiful they decied to go with the auto level as I do remember battling some very powerful monsters in BG with my level 1 F/M/T and winning. It was only a matter of minutes before my PC was at maximum level and finding BG extremely easy and boring.

 

BG2 is just so much better than DA on almost every level. The story was better, certainly more imaginative; the characters were a blast - I mean who in DA is cooler than Minsc? or Jahiera? or Viconia?

IMO, not only did BG2 have better characters, voice acting and dialogue, but I like the overall look of the game better, despite the technology; the artwork and design of BG2 are light-years better than DA, despite the primitive graphics engine. Almost every environment is carefully rendered and unique, very different from each other - the Drow city, the different districts of the City Amn; the Elven City the different dungeons (Windspear Hills, Umar Hills, Watcher's Keep and the Planar Sphere).

The side quests were truly interesting, for the most part. Is there anything like the Cooper Coronet in DA? I think DA's lack of detail is what bugs me about it. Where's something like the crazy wife looking for her husband, who is passed out upstairs with the hookers in the CC (just as an example)? There is a lot of that kind of off-beat stuff that's woven into the story of BG2 and ToB that's almost completely missing from DA.

That's not to say that any of this is "bad" in DA; not at all, some of it is still very good. But it's not the RPG masterpiece that BG2 and ToB are, IMHO.

 

I agree with you completely, Chandos. Been re-playing DaO today, and I keep noticing stuff that are lacking. Its pretty much hack your way through an area, following a set path, and then kill some boss at the end of it. The variety in locations, compared to BG2, is severely lacking as well. Not sure about the companions though. They seem more fleshed out than the BG2 ones. They are pretty much on par with the BG2 characters. Maybe slightly better, due to the fact that there is more dialogue with the NPC`s in DaO.

I don`t agree with you that ToB is a rpg masterpiece though. ToB was kind of like a rushed hack and slash fest, really. But still...BG2 is by far the best cprg so far.

 

I love that game and I'm convinced Origins bring a lot to the game.

Playing as a Dwarf Noble Warrior is incredibly badass. I used to like Dwarf Commoner more but there is something to be said for both Dwarf origins. I'm really fond of the little guys in this game but I have to say City Elf is still my favourite.

My take on Morrigan is different. Zevran would hit on anything with a pulse but although Morrigan is promiscuous she is really different in her attitude towards sex and relationships. She's the kind of girl who doesn't want to get involved so she has no problem with having sex but once she becomes romantically involved she starts feeling threatened if her significant other is not exclusive.

That may look like a contradiction and some odd behaviour but IMO it's rather realistic. I've known quite a few girls who didn't feel that there was anything wrong with having some fun but got scared or jealous once it became more serious.

I think that Morrigan's upbringing did prepare her for a callous and hostile world so she can always sense motives in others for doing what they do and she doesn't expect anyone to do anything without reasons. Hence becoming her friend is in a way more difficult than becoming her lover.

 

Amen, I got almost exactly the same impression. And it's not just because she feels threatened or anything once the relationship goes beyond the sex, she can also be quite self-serving. What's the point in having something everyone else also has? She actually says something with almost exactly the same message, at some point.
Remember that Morrigan, of all people, is always trying to master everything around her for the sake of power. Even her feelings.
"If the party was going out for a drink, writer Sheryl Chee has said, Morrigan would 'refuse to partake in any such foolishness.'" She's not completely arrogant however, since she also happens to know her limitations.
Quite a handful, this character.

The dwarf endings are ominous. Although there are things we could probably expect from the dwarf race in the future (for all we know, Dagna can learn to become a mage or possibly become a master alchemist or crafter, opening a "caster"-type dwarf class in the future) that's not even going to happen if

Spoiler

they all get eradicated by the darkspawn as a result of Harrowmont or Bhelen's rule.

 

Fallout 1 & 2 come to mind, but yeah, not that many games apart from those two.

Obviously, I wouldn't, but considering that so many games nowadays use some form of level scaling, I'd imagine that many people would complain because it is what they've become used to. Some may even have grown up on it.

You dislike this, I would find this hilarious. I love it when I can break a game. I had tons of fun breaking BG2 by using the trusty old Vecna's Robe + Time Stop + Improved Alacrity + every spell in your spellbook. Start off the sequence with a Project Image for extra fun. I find playing a game like it wasn't intended to be played a lot of fun and I never tire of seriously overpowered powergaming.

I largely agree with you here. BG2 wasn't unique despite its graphics, but because of its graphics. For a game that's done in 3D, DA:O does have a great deal of variety in it's settings, though that's mostly outdoors. Indoors, dungeons may have various unique features, it still largely feels the same. Especially those dungeon crawls in houses in Denerim were very much guilty of this, but the Deep Roads were not much better in this respect. I may be letting my dislike of all the fighting you have to do in those indoor areas influence my judgement here, though. Except for those houses and the tower of the Circle of Magi, where every room is the same as the next.

 

Then you should know that it took a while for tactics like that to be known (or even used, ToB came much later) and that for a few years BG1 players had to toil and spend countless hours testing, scouring the forums, asking and cajoling other players and exploiting dozens of other game "quirks" to finally arrive at the most ludicrous, "cheesy" tactics most people know and practice today.
It didn't all happen in a few months, I can tell you. And at the very least, Dragon Age: Origins is just about as complex as BG2. It also happens to come with everything you need to beat the game, while old BG players had to dig up old Forgotten Realms and D&D lore just to understand why their attacks weren't working against a particular monster.

 

I love that game but I have to disagree on that point. The feedback is rather limited and it's difficult to assess what some abilities do exactly. That's where a mod like detailed tooltips comes into play. While BG may have been obscure for non D&D (I mean ADD) players it provided us with information so we could do the math and find out. DA seems less obscure but when it comes to details we're not given the exact formulas (at least not in the unmodded game).

And don't get me started on the mess with damage modifiers based on Dexterity and Strength depending on the different patches (think about crossbows and tell me if it's not broken).

That being said it is a good game and the most cheesy tacks are not that hard to pull once you start thinking about how you can abuse area of effect spells and magic with line of sight and fog of war (I won't mention the obvious pre nerf cheese with cone of cold and force field).

On a different note, I'm currently playing a dwarf noble who has found his way back to Orzammar and it's nice to see that even minor choices in the origin story have repercussions later in the game. In that respect DAO has more depth than most recent CRPGS that I've played.

 

Figuring out the skills is one thing, since even in BG2 we had to go through that, but in DA:O you only need a proper understanding of tactics to see you through. In BG2 things were different - you also had to know specifically what enemies were immune to, resistant against, what spells they used, etc. Even the doorway trick wouldn't help against iron golems if you didn't have a +3 weapon, for example. And you had to be prepared when dealing with trolls. I had serious problems dealing with clay golems and slimes the first few times I played. I don't think mindlessly killing stuff in BG2 would work out as well.

I don't think formula thing isn't a bother actually, it's part of any game. Even BG2 had its secrets. I've looked over some from the Wiki and a lot the formulas in DA:O are reminiscent of MMORPG's, but you should be able figure them out by yourself.
I've never used crossbows so I didn't know they were bugged, might as well start planning not to I guess.

Won't spoil much, but I'll say the grey warden (PC) is best off a dwarf noble.

Btw, I think there is a way to make Morrigan "nicer", although you'll need to invest a bit in coercion. In my game I was able to convince her to question Flemeth's teachings, and most times when she acted out because my character did something "good" I got a persuade option which allowed me to greatly decrease or even eliminate any approval loss from her. I think the change happened when I asked if she could "try to be nicer" when I gave her the golden mirror plot item, and she responded by saying that she'll try to "control her demeanor".
I haven't found any other mention of this so far. I'm hoping this option is similar to the ones that "harden" other characters like Alistair or Leliana.

 

Mindlessly killing stuff could work if you have the proper weapon sets. After all before getting HLAs a Fighter is all about having some potions, the right weapons and armours and some dextrous pointing and clicking.

In any case I can see your point about the D&D stuff. I was already familiar with Pnp RPGs and Advanced Dungeons and Dragons when I first played BG so I had no problems figuring out all the niceties that you refer to. In that respect DAO is certainly more accessible (they really tried to avoid situations which wouldn't allow you to progress through the game).

Up to a certain point I agree with you. What I mean is that in BG you get to see the dice roll and you can draw conclusions from this information. In DAO you can't really know how things work unless you're prepared to look through the files or browse the Wikia. For instance I'm pretty sure most of us would be hard pressed to find out the exact influence of Cunning on a Bard song from the game only. Cunning improves the Bard song that's right but what difference does 10 points make? That's an important question if you're looking to make a good build (especially since Leliana must have a rather good Dexterity to be able to use a certain bow so you can't just pump all her points in Cunning).

If you start looking you'll find out that Momentum is much better than any other boost you can get from end tier Dual Wielding perks. That's not something that you can learn in an easy way from the game alone.

Can you really tell how useful the Duelist specialization is from in game information? Not really. Will testing it in game give you that much information? I'm afraid not, it will tell you if this specialization is more or less useful depending on your playstyle but you won't know the details and in any case that would mean investing a large number of levels just to find out.

In BG you had a rather comprehensive set of tables that told you exactly what advantages you could get from having a higher STR or a higher DEX or from investing points in a particular weapon proficiency. In that respect DAO can be misleading since the way Dexterity and Strength are used to define damage depending on a weapon type is not that clear (especially before patch 1.02 which fixed dagger damage).

There is something wrong with the way damage modifiers are compounded for crossbows. Just see for yourself in game and you'll notice that damage wise you're better off with a bow. High Strength will also make a archer dish out more damage and that is not something that is common in CRPGs.

If the Warden is a Warrior then you can make a strong case for both Dwarf origins. Have you played the City Elf Origin? It's probably the best origin for a Rogue (since city elves are not allowed to carry weapons). If you want to play a Mage then you will probably agree with me that in that case the Mage origin is the best.

You get persuasion options with most characters who disagree with your choices not only Morrigan (Alistair's reaction to Flemeth's suggestion that Morrigan should accompany you is just one example).

Every NPC has a particular item that will get you some big bonus and trigger a specific dialogue (in the case of Morrigan the mirror). Depending on your choices you will be able to change their attitude (the "harden" thing that you refer to). I've been through the same thing with Morrigan (I really like her because she is different from the others, in some ways she is the Viconia of Dragon Age). It's the power of love.

 

If you are romancing Morrigan giving her the mirror makes her fall in love with you because you remember something she said and you did something sweet.

 

Furthermore, you're not asking for anything in return and that is something that she is just not used to.

 

I was hoping for a lot more

But my biggest three complaints, and what stop DragonAge from being anything more than a passable CRPG in my mind:

3)You can't design your own party. Remember how in Baldur's Gate you could play multi-player as one player and build an entire party to play through with? I loved that option. NPC interaction is fine, but it gets old and I'd really like at least the option to design my own party and get into the tactical aspect of that. It can't be that hard a feature. Unless Bioware could somehow figure out a way to make your custom party members STILL interact with the other NPCs and each other. How awesome would that be?

2) Lack of character customization. All the characters look largely alike. I love to design a unique look for my character. Fable II got it, a lot of NWN community mods got it, DragonAge did not get it. The character is the center of any CRPG. Let us customize the hell out of him / her.

1) Oh yes, the big Daddy of all my complaints... THE TOOLSET. Spiritual sucessor to NWN my ass! If it was, we'd be drowning in thousands of DragonAge mods by now. Entire campaigns and hundreds upon hundreds of hours of CRPG goodness! But the best even experienced modders can do with that unweildy steaming pile of crap is pop out mods to tweak the visuals of the main campaign. It doesn't matter how powerful it is if no one can use it! We were promised a toolset my friends, and Dragonage did not deliver. We were lied to.

Overall rating, with 1 being a particularly buggy 2D game with no plot and 10 being Baldur's Gate 2 with Oblivion quality graphics??? DragonAge gets a 6, mostly just for well designed NPCs and the half implemented ideas of the origins.

But against it's own potential with the toolset lie figured in? A 5. The NWN expansions and NWN 2 were both better. Baldur's Gate 2 was A LOT better. Even Icewind Dale had more replay value, with a thin plot and no NPC interaction at all.

Bioware... you are the kings of CRPG land. Please take us in a new direction. KoTR has been done too many times.

 

@Cailano: you can use mods to build your followers from scratch (Character Respec or DA Mutator). Not that much of variety in the end I agree but still it's better than being stuck with the same abilities, talents and stats. There are also mods that allow you to change the appearance of characters (countless morph files are posted everyday it's a bore actually). I agree that the toolset is a pain, check out Alley of Murders, it's a really good module that fits in the OC quite nicely (and it's way better than some of the official DLCs).

Having played Fable 2 at a friend's I don't agree that DAO is as shallow as that console game.

Icewind Dale doesn't have more replay value either. I love it but it's linear and doesn't allow for many different builds (unlike IWD2). At least in DAO the story changes depending on your origin and choices. I'd suggest using the NPC mod for Icewind Dale, it makes for a renewed gaming experience.

You make some valid points though, the Kotor thing is getting old, that's for sure. Check out the mod list I've posted, it may rekindle your interest and help with your complaints.

 

The one thing I wish DAO had was a multi player feature. It would be nice to get a group togehter to play against a horde of Darkspawns. That would have been AWESOME!