What's better in ToB - pure mage or mc fighter-mage ?

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If this was a SoA thread I would say that I prefer dual-class characters, but it isn't, so I don't. I don't really know why, but somehow I don't like the lvl 10 spells that much (though I use Summon Planetar a lot, that spell is omnipotent ), but I really like the fighting possibilities of a multi-class fighter/mage (the dual-class version is good at this too, but I think that this is better). I find the illusion and sequencer spells particularly effective. A Spell Trigger with Mislead, Improved Haste and Invisibility 10' radius really works wonders. Or you can load a Spell Sequencer with three fireballs and blast away all opposition (I played a solo fighter/mage, so I didn't have to worry about party members getting hit).
I think that the hardiness ability makes up for the lower hit points. Not that you get hit often, but it's still good to have...

Anyway, I'm rambling, and I shall finish here.

 

Well, I agree. Since I have Imoen for the few high level spells I'll need I can concentrate on sequencers and combat spells for my mc fighter mage. As for special abilities I look certainly forward to greather death blow and toughness (and, of course - the extra spells).

The absolute majority of enemies in SoA / ToB is of relatively low level (with relatively silly saving throws) so I found the relatively low level spells death, emotion, confusion, chaos & fear really marvellous since they allowed me to bring in my melee abilities effectively.

 

Why are you using Imoen and not Edwin??? Edwin is like the most powerful mage in the game!!!

 

I would play a thiefless party otherwise and I know that even Imoens restricted thieving abilities will come in handy on watcher's keep. Of course Edwin's spellcasting potential is awesome and he's certainly the better mage compared to Imoen (specialist mage + amulett).

 

I have a simple question which will likely put this whole debate to rest on which class is better. Under normal one time through the game circumstances, what will the fighter/mages thaco be by games end. Now my Kensai/mage's (dualed at level 9, frost giant girdle perhaps, celetial fury and the answerer dual wielded) thaco was *fairly* poor (-2 and -1), but he could still do well against weaker enemies and in larger battles, he could try to slug it out and cast spells front line to help my other front liners. I think the thaco of the multiclass will solve this argument. If it isn't that much better than the DC version, then I'd much rather have dragon's breath and comet than greater death blow or whirwind attack.

 

Well, in my 'one time through' game, Mazzy ended up with a net -14 THAC0. She had the gauntlets of extraordinary specialization, a +5 weapon, and the girdle of Fire Giant Strength. (Her unmodified THAC0 was -1). Anomen's net THAC0, with similar equipment, was -7. I don't have a multi to check, unfortunately. But I suspect the difference would only be 2 or 3 points.

Aloha
Vormaerin

[This message has been edited by Vormaerin (edited October 17, 2001).]

 

Hmm, I am still unsure about what's better, lvl-13 kensai-mage or mc fighter-mage. I like my chars to have a good THACO and about zero is great for SoA but I always felt it was kinda insufficient for ToB.

I read this topic too late - so I added a comparison here: http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003982.html

 

Hi,

I couple of questions and observations on this discussion, very interesting,

Firstly, I am only partway though my first SOA/TOB game and so have not seen all of the opponents throughout the game, however my question is what is the lowest armor class I am going to see in an opponent? From reading my PNP monster manual I think demogorgon has an AC of -8, is the lowest?

If the best AC I am going to be up against is say -10 then having a THACO of less than -10 does not help since I will always hit a -10 AC opponent on anything better than a roll of 1, 1 always misses.

If this statment is true then it is not whether I hit the opponent or not that matters but how many times I can hit him in a round that matters - I want to bring that sucker down as quickly as possible before he pounds on me.

From memory, don't have the PNP DM tables in front of me at the moment, if we are just talking about SOA then a kensai/mage dualed at lvl 9 would have a base THACO of 12 (start at 20, loses 1 per level), then add in the 3 extra for lvl 9 kensai, the possible 1 extra for grand master that would give a base THACO of 8 if using a grand mastered weapon, base THACO of 9 if using a specialised weapon.
A mc fighter mage would reach lvl 13 at the xp cap for SOA, this would give a base THACO of 8. He would get no bonus THACO due to class, his THACO of 8 would apply if using a specialised weapon.
I haven't added strength, + of weapon etc since these would apply to both characters equally - except that the fighter could use the various gaunlets and bracers to improve THACO and the kensai could not. Really there is not much difference, the kensai is probably the better fighter earlier in the game, but can't use magic for a while, whereas the fighter takes a little while to catch up in THACO terms but can use magic straightaway.
Also, the Kensai/mage will be the better mage by game end (higher level spells).

If we now consider TOB, and assume we can reach the xp cap, and further assume that we chose to dual our Kensai at lvl 13 now to take advantage of the extra attack and the higher xp cap, we get the following:

Kensai's base THACO is 8 plus the 4 class bonus for lvl 13 plus the 1 for grand master - gives 3 for grand master weapon and 4 for specialised weapon.
MC fighter/mage could reach lvl 24 as a fighter, base THACO by the end of the game would be THACO -3 with a specialised weapon.

This is significantly better than the kensai - pretty obvious really the new xp cap allows the mc fighter/mage to overtake the kensai/mage as the better fighter because the mc character will continue to advance whereas the kensai is stuck at lvl 13

Of course, this assumes that you can reach the xp cap in TOB, for every level you fail to reach add one to the mc characters THACO.
Level 17 fighter would give you the same THACO as the Kensai with a specialised weapon, 4.

Now add in the extra abilities the mc fighter has access to, whirlwind etc and the advantage the mc character has increases still further - both characters can hit the opponent, but the mc character can deal damage faster, probably the key thing with the tougher monsters.

Of course, the kensai/mage will still be the better mage, (more higher lvl spells).

Ultimately, it seems to me that both types of fighter/mage character have advantages, it all depends on your playing style and the party you are playing with and whether you are playing through to TOB or not.
If it is just SOA, then the kensai/mage is probably better, better early game fighter, better mage at the end.

The mc character makes a great backup mage and backup fighter all the way through the game but will never excel in either. Spell protections etc make a big difference but the pure fighter will always have the better AC. I guess that is what multi class means - jack-of-all-trades, whereas dual means you stop advancing in one class and start in another. As the levels progress, that first class is going to be more and more stale and less and less useful.

If you plan to play through TOB, then the mc character is the better fighter and the kensai would probably have to sit back and cast spells a bit more, The mc character would never be as good a mage as the dual. He might get lvl 9 spells but the dual would have more.

The party and your playing style are key things here. Both of these types of character are very powerful. How many high level mages do you need? and how many fighters?

In my game I am playing a mc fighter/mage. My party is keldorn, minsc, aerie, jaheira and imoen. Hence, I have three mages, four fighters, a druid and cleric and a pretty poor thief - just not all at once! Depening on the situation, I can send all four fighters to bash things or just my main tanks and more or less characters to cast magic when needed. Hence, I have a very flexible party, hopefully able to use several different tactics to solve problems. My mc character will be able to keep switching between both roles all the way through TOB, since each class is advancing. If I used a kensai/mage here, then eventually my PC would have to sit back and cast spells more as his fighting skills might not be fresh enough at the front.

I am in chapter 4. I use my PC as a backup mage and a buffed up (with his magic) frontline fighter. He is dual wielding the fury and belm and is very effective. He will never be as good a mage as imoen, (on a par with aerie), when Imoen eventually catches up - (spoiler - it was a bit of a shock to find imoen still on some crappy level when I picked her up in spellhold - however, it makes perfect sense, just annoying) and he can have problems with the hard hitting monsters, but thats well Minsc and Keldorn lend a hand.
I am planning to take him through to TOB. My playing style is to play a big Fighter and a small mage, whereas a kensai/mage would give me a small fighter and big mage.

Anyway, enough rambling on, as I said at the start this is my first time through SOA/TOB so take anything I have said with caution as I only have my limited experience to pull on. Also, the PNP tables stuff was from memory so its possible there is a mistake or two in there.

I guess it is discussions like these the make you realise what a rich game this is: there are just so many choices and so little time.....

Cheers,

WittyNewt.