What is in your opinion called "Powergaming"

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Further to Gopher’s comment about SK, IMO if it doesn’t actually make it easier for your character to make it through the game, it’s not powergaming and, as Gopher said, it can actually aid in roleplaying.

As to Harkle's comments, all 18' is probably cheating (unless you got an incredibly lucky roll - has anyone ever rolled this?). As far as powergaming items, I will admit that I usually go for the best equipment, so in that regard, I powergame.

Another question – if I created a slightly modified half-orc multi-classed inquisitor/sorcerer (dual wielding Carsomyr and Staff of the Magi), would it be powergaming to add the XPcap remover?

[ October 04, 2003, 17:07: Message edited by: Splunge ]

 

Powergaming isn't necessarily the opposite of roleplaying. For example: Harkle said that the Cloak of Mirroring and the Shield of Balduran are powergaming items. I would agree to this, but I would also consider it really crappy roleplaying if you would not take these items. Come on: how stupid are you if you don't take a really (too) powerful item with you? My sorcerer has 18 INT. Surely he can understand those items can come in handy.

As for high stats being unrealistic: I'm no expert, but isn't level 40 (or even 17) a bit unrealistic in DnD PnP terms?

 

@Earl Grey...

The reason there are no tomes in BG2 is because
a) There are a few other ways to get higher stats (Tears of Bhaal, items, spells)
b) The tomes were in BG1. It wouldn't make much sense to put them there again after you read them.

Also, you can get at least 21 wisdom by playing through BG1 and 2, so I really don't think that 19 is superhuman. It's possible for a human to get 19 or 20, but he has to learn some very complex and secret ways of obtaining such a stat. Some races get higher stats because of the way their bodies are built.

20 is extremly talented and few match your ability (meaning you could win the strongman competition or something).

 

How is the fact that in the game you can get Wisdom of 21 relevant? If there were enough tomes to get Wisdom to 25, would that mean that 25 is not godlike?

Can humans get 19 in any stat without resorting to some kind of magic? If not, then what is the reason for maintaining that 19 is not superhuman?

How can 20 (or higher) be referred to merely as extremely "talented"?

 

Taken directly from the Player's Handbook (3rd Edition), it says that the basic average for a Human is 10. Normal people have 10 in all stats. An elf for example, is more agile, so would have 13 or 14 in dexterity. A very talented human might have this.

It is said that adventurers (ie, the player) is a special character, someone different from everyone else. This is represented in their stats (from training, etc). A typical "average" adventurer would have say, 12 in all stats, with an elven adventurer having 15/16 basic dexterity.

That's the way I see it.

And about powerful items. Powerful items aren't powergaming nessecarily. You can successfully roleplay (and I have) a character with super powerful items.
Example;

Play a NE Bounty Hunter who's single mission in life is to seek out powerful heroes and kill them (taking their powerful items as trophies).

A treasure-hungry dwarf who just loves gold, jewellery and shiny, magic, weapons.

etc

It's more than possible to roleplay, while still having powerful items. (as someone said, a smart character would obviously use them).

 

..Back to the conversation about which ability score is superhuman etc..
I have a "living" example of an very very agile hero, who is legendary through all fantasy readers who have probably even happen to look through Forgotten Realms -books, this dude had a natural agility, came from a city of darkness and vileness ´GUESS WHO?

The dude i'm talkin about is Drizzt And IIRC, he had a dex of 21 on that hero book concerning heroes and infamous character of FR. Artemis had 20 IIRC.. so, basically what I think of it, IT IS possible for a human/elf to gain higher values on abilites (atleast physical) through tremendous amount of training etc.. and that book was based on D&D 2nd edition, IIRC.

But this is my opinion.

And are Frost giants Godlike? IIRC, they had strenght of 25 (2nd edition)

and in 3rd edition rules greater/elder wyrm's could have INT of 35 etc. ...But that sort of INT requires a LOT of age etc.

so basically, if you'd create a char of lvl 17 etc. you COULD add him atleast Physical abilities (STR, DEX) 20-21 atleast (elfs mostly).
But that's my opinion on it

:EDIT:
Anyone know what is wulfgar's official strenght? is it over 18/00?

 

Perhaps some confusion is due to the difference beween 1st and 2nd edition AD&D on one hand and 3rd edition D&D on the other. We're not talking about 3rd edition here, are we?

My pnp knowledge is mostly from 1st edition, which could be a problem.

Monster Manual (and MM II etc) says this about intelligence:
17-18: Genius
19-20: Supra-genius (a fair translation of which is: Above extraordinary intellectual power)
21+: Godlike intelligence

This is what they say about strength (which fits well with the girdles in BG2):
19 Hill Giant
20 Stone Giant
21 Frost Giant
22 Fire Giant
23 Cloud Giant
24 Storm Giant
25 Titan

I wrote earlier that I considered 20 to be godlike and I'm willing to modify that to 21, but either way, AFAIK stats like these are not normally possible in 1st and 2nd ed AD&D.

 

@ Earl Grey...

As to your earlier post (I'm pleased you gave a little but, hell, I'm goin' for more ) I think that, of course, if you had enough tomes, you could get 25, but there aren't enough tomes (obviously the game designers didn't want a character with 25 in anything) to do that.

I really think that if an elven adventurer has an average of 15/16 dex, then a talented elf would have 19, being the most that a common elf could achieve without the help of ancient writings that teach you forgotten fighting moves and such. Therefore, the most a human can get is 18, which is reletively low compared to the limit the game gives you. With the help of magic and/or some tomes they find, a human can learn tricks and stances and moves that he couldn't figure out on his own.

I don't think 19 is beyond what a human can achieve, he just doesn't know how to use his clumsy body to the utmost. I'll admit that it is "superhuman", but in the most basic sense of the word. Superhuman, to me, means an incredible feat that is so far beyond a lowly mortal that he can't even begin to comprehend the complexity (or plain brute strength) of what he just saw.

 

I had To create a powerplayer character just for fun i chose a sorcerer, rolled up enough points to lower the charisma to the lowest, and strength to the lowest. The rest i managed to beef up to 18! Now, with the ring of human influence and "some-bracers-i-dont-remember-the-name-of" he will eventually have 18 on every stat! Id say that would be fitting for a bhaal spawn, eh?

 

There are some guantlets that raise your STR to 18/00, but a sorcerer can't wear them (warriors only). If you are talking about the Bracers of Dexterity (called the bracers of I-forget-the-name-too!) that raise your dex to 18, then I would say that yes, that's an extremely powergamed character. There aren't any bracers that raise your str.

 

Upon this whole discussion, my only pure play was the first, when i used only the expeience from the BG1... lot's of arows and long bows
(Was not ideal, since my Paladin at the front killed 50-60% of the enemies)
At the following games, i used item list, and i did not have to think much about the missions, but discovered new ones...

I think powergaming can be intresting, full of optimizing... If you think, what you do is wrong, don't do that. But if not... who cares? You bought this game, play as you want!

 

The example someone mentioned of how a roleplayer would seek the fastest route to Imoen, whereas a powergamer would get all the items and power he could, and only then go after her, was a good one. Because I have very similar experiences of this myself.

As was mentioned, the most common sign of powergaming is using your real-life information of the game for your advantage. Basically any smallest possible advantage you use, from predicting the next encounter from previous games and memorizing spells accordingly, to knowing where to look for certain good items in advance thanks to information your character could not have, is powergaming. Meaning, everyone playing the same game more than say 2 times is most certainly guilty of powergaming. But it comes in degrees, as said. And this lowest degree is hardly avoidable by anyone.

Powergaming cannot go hand in hand with roleplaying. Powergaming exists for one purpose: to game for power. It comes in variating degrees, yes, but the goal is still the same. While you can of course combine powergaming with roleplaying, they are in essence mutually exclusive. This means that the more powergaming you do, the less roleplaying there is left to be had. While you can 'roleplay' a character that pursues power, you must remember that this comes with a cost. Certainly a character in pursuit of power would not have the time or will to do quests that obviously involved no power at all. Instead being nothing more than little social events or something suchlike. More to the point, whatever type of nature your character has, there are always things they are not prepared to do. If you still take advantage of these things just for the sake of power, then it is powergaming. It's hard to find examples for this in BG2, but for example Fallout 2 had clear 'bad' side quests and 'good' side quests, and you could easily sleaze your way to 1/3 more experience by doing quests for both sides in the right order.


I don't like powergaming, personally. Still, saying I didn't do it would be a lie. I've played BG2 through so many times that each and every game I play now is at least 1/2 powergaming. I can no longer receive the roleplaying feeling from the plot and dialogue, which means that in every game I make precise calculations on which party members to get, which items to get, which quests to get, etc, and put them all in an order that will please me most. Wether this is for nice dialogue and some nice immersive roleplaying gamish feeling, or anything else, doesn't make a difference.

In the end, it comes down to the same conclusion as was in the thread concerning what is cheesy. That is, powergaming is whatever you think it is when you feel like it. It's your game, and you have a right to play it the way you want. No-one can claim superiority over you just because of difference in gaming preferences. Still, when it comes to multiplaying, the differences between a powergamer and a roleplayer become painful indeed.

What's good to remember too is that in the world you're playing, your character doubtly knows he's getting more 'powerful' from most of the things he's doing. Experience itself can never be the only determining factor for wether you do something or not. If it is, then it's just another example of how you use real-life information for guiding your character for more power, and thus, becomes powergaming. It's a difficult thing to make a roleplaying character in pursuit of great power. Because even if he was avoiding quests that wouldn't fit his character, he'd still have to measure the risks in obtaining that power. Probably in the end, such a character would wind up dead because his nature would ultimately guide him to a challenge that could not be overcome. Merely making this journey succesfully without dying then means that he was able to take on the right opponents in the right order, which yet again is a sing of powergaming.

A bit confusing I'm sure. Once again I made this text in 3 parts during the day, so I apologize.

Still powergaming always has different goals than roleplaying, so as said, the more you do the other, the less you're able to do the other.

[ October 06, 2003, 15:09: Message edited by: Foradasthar ]

 

So one definition of powergaming is assigning high stats for a fighter to STR, DEX and CON and low stats to WIS, INT and CHA?

Isn't that common sense?

Sorry for saying this, but who in their right mind is going to give their fighter a CHA of 15 and, as a result, lose out on much needed STR, DEX and CON?

 

When we're talking low, we're talking a score of 3 here. Minsc has a reason for being an idiot while the PC does not.

 

As for the stats. Yes, some characters in D&D may have their stats over the max of their race. But they are exceptions. Much like any genetically different freak would be in our world. They are out of the norm.

Take Ed Greenwood's Shandril for example. She has the power to control spellfire, something that would annihilate most of your opponents in BG2 easily, and when learned complete control over, would already rival the power of a God by itself. So is it then right to say that because she had it, you should also be able to choose it upon character creation?

Point is, as a hero you are an exception to normal people. This is reflected by your considerably-above-agerage stats. But because D&D is still a game and not a single story meant for one godly adventure, there need to be clear limitations for your character. I'm sure you can understand what would happen if anyone could decide to be a child of Ao (Overfather, the God of Gods, so to speak, anyone who's played ToB through at least has a hint of his name). So a 19 in any stat is superhuman for a human. It's not only talented, it's beyond what can be. But such a talent is not something you can "choose". It's a gift, divine or not. One that few can ever be blessed with.

 

@ Forad

You make great points in both of your posts.

I'd like to add my two cents here. It is perfectly reasonable to lower certain stats to improve others, if done within reason. For example, say you are playing a fighter and you roll 12 in everything at character creation. Taking a few points off of wisdom and intelligence to beef up strength is perfectly reasonable and not powergaming. However, dropping wisdom, intelligence and charisma to 3 in order to get the highest possible strength, constitution and dexterity IS powergaming.

Take the paladin I am currently playing. I have 18 in strength and dexterity, a 16 in constitution and a 17 charisma. In order to get this, I had to drop my wisdom to the paladin minimum 13 - but that's still above average, and I dropped my intelligence to 9, which is only slightly below average. I certainly could have dropped it to 6 and given my paladin an 18 in both constitution and charisma, but 6 is getting significantly below average (lower than Minsc actually), and I don't think the PC should be stupid.

That being said, I don't think it's powergaming to memorize certain spells because you know what's coming up in the next battle because you've played the game before. If you don't do that, then you go into battle, you probably lose, and you do what you did the first time you encountered that battle - reload the game, change your strategy (which usually includes resting to memorize the spells you need) and then try again. Taking the literal definition of powergaming (using information you know that your character wouldn't know to help you through the game) anyone who has played the game more than once, or reloads the game even once because their character died, is powergaming. The only way to say you never powergame is if you can claim you beat the game your first time through without ever having to reload even once.

One more thing I'd like to bring up - one prime example of powergaming that no one has touched upon yet is taking all the different NPC's with you at some point to get all the experience from the NPC specific quests. That's powergaming at it's worst.

First of all, it's going to be difficult to justify bringing both good and evil NPC's into the party. Regardless of whether your PC is good, neutral or evil, there are going to be certain people (s)he will choose to associate with, and regardless of the alignment, the list of people (s)he would associate with would not include everybody.

Secondly, it is unrealistic from a roleplaying perspective to remove someone from your party who you ultimately want to include to pick someone else up who isn't going to be in your party until you complete their specific quest. Why would your PC choose to add someone they didn't really want? This is especially so because your PC wouldn't know that character has a side quest, and wouldn't know that the NPC you are removing from your group is going to hang around so you know exactly where to get him/her again after you dispose of the NPC you ultimately don't want.

 

I can give you one good example of real powergaming.

You kick out Yoshimo directly after Irenicus Dungeon and retrieve him right before you are leaving for spellhold. When you arrive inside the asylum you take of all his gear because you know he will betray you and if he is unarmed, he can't backstab you or do any non-subdual damage.

THAT is powergaming.

 

@dshadow

I’m assuming we’re talking about the PC here. Remember, your PC is a leader, with the traits needed to have people be willing to follow him/her. IMO this assumes at least average (10, according to Gopher’s comment above) intelligence, wisdom and charisma. After all, who would want to follow an idiot, a fool, or someone with the personality of a turnip (other than perhaps Jan ). That is one the differences between roleplaying and powergaming; there’s nothing in the game rules requiring that you have more than the minimum stats, but roleplaying means that the minimums are generally not acceptable.

And I’m not going to speak for anyone else, but IMO there’s nothing wrong with powergaming; just don’t try to delude yourself into thinking that you are roleplaying. Furthermore, and I think this has been made pretty clear in this thread, a player can “mix and match” elements of roleplaying and powergaming to give him/her the gaming experience they desire; I for one have elements of both in my games.

 

This is pretty subjective. Evil parties would follow a squirrel if they thought they would profit greatly from the association, either by betraying him at the right moment or taking advantage of his power and reputation. Good parties would follow an idiot <insert American President joke here> if they supported the cause of his quest, or owed him allegiance, as is the case with most NPC's. And neutral parties would follow a baffoon, especially one of divine descent, if they felt his destiny served some greater role, or themselves in the long run, or if they simply found the association amusing.

 

"Good parties would follow an idiot <insert American President joke here> if they supported the cause of his quest, or owed him allegiance, as is the case with most NPC's."

Hey, leave Clinton alone, he's in retirement now....

IMHO, "powergaming' is actually more of an attitude adopted by certain psychologically maladjusted individuals who are trying to use a computer game to compensate for their lack of social skills and self-esteem.

Play the game however you like, you paid for it -- but don't you dare ask me to respect your latest tale of "conquest" if it involves doing something any human DM with half a brain wouldn't allow you to do in PnP.

People who are constantly posting about the precisely perfect stats and levels and class combinations, etc. for the ULTIMATE uber-PC -- these are "powergamers." People who can't see that the game is easy to win without cheats, cheese, or Shadowkeeper -- thanks to all of the magic items, money and experience lavished on you throughout the game -- are powergamers. People who argue over "the perfect party" are powergamers. People who abandon all but the pretense of roleplaying are powergamers. Etc.

Remember, folks, you are a BhaalSPAWN, and not BHAAL -- and even Bhaal wasn't omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc. Rationalize all you want, but there's a reason why the designers just didn't start you off with all 18s or all 25s, or with the Nameless One's ability to multiclass/dualclass at will, or include an experience point cap....

The game was meant primarily to let you play AD&D on your computer, and the Bhaalspawn bit is really just a little plot device to make the game stand out with a unique storyline. Some players seem to be taking this whole "I am a god" thing WAY too seriously.

Noah Fence