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What can you say about the President of the United States?

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by LKD, May 22, 2012.

  1. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Are you ascribing that second phrase to my thinking as well? Because I don't think that way. What I do think is that people who are suited to a job have an easier time than people who are not suited to it, and that goes for any job.

    There are all kinds of people who look at their current job and think how terrible it is and how easy someone else's job is. There are lots of people who make the switch and realize it wasn't as easy as they thought. And there are lots of people who switch to a job they are better suited for and have a great experience.

    Just as joa said he knows people who have left teaching and found the new position more relaxed and rewarding, so I know people who have left the corporate grind for teaching and found teaching to be more relaxed and rewarding.

    So again, if what you are doing is too stressful and you don't think you are getting paid enough for what you do, then by all means try something else. You may find you are better suited to some other line of work. Then again, maybe you won't. :)
     
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  2. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Well, I chose it because I was really really bored in the army and I wanted a intellectually stimulating job. I am not really mathematically inclined which crosses out many career paths for me. Not very interested in law. Of the things I were interested in it was only politics, history and literature that could possibly lead to a career and then only in teaching as I was not really interested in studying for the rest of my life and I am fairly sure I lack the talent to become a writer. Basically I felt I needed to get a degree, didn't really know what kind of degree so why not teaching. I am not really the most ambitious type, I have little interest in money (strange huh seeing since I complain a lot about the wage but there is a difference between not being motivated by money to being paid so little you feel completely unappreciated). I am not interested in the cut-throat corporate world. Then after my first practical experiences I was hooked, teaching when it works is really really awesome. It has the potential to be completely wonderful for all involved.

    I have not worked for very long and am willing to give it a few more shots but am trying to change school. If it continues like this I will take pretty much any other job, heck most unqualified jobs with a lot less pressure pays similar or perhaps even more. My mate who just took random courses in college and took a crap job at a bank now earn more than me. True he is a pretty good guy and been promoted a few steps but I also know him and if he could do it so can I. There is no promotion as a teacher no matter how good you are and then of course we are back to the point of how to decide whether you are a good teacher.
     
  3. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    So, you would support an objective performance measurement if it meant the good teachers were rewarded? Assuming of course some reasonable method could be developed...

    If so, then you and I agree. Why should a teacher work hard to be great and teach their students well when the guy next door is a lazy slob and gets the same pay - or better - just because he's been at the job longer?
     
  4. Rotku

    Rotku I believe I can fly Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    We've been having this exact same debate here in New Zealand. Every staff room I've been into these past few months have been a buzz with this exact topic. As a teacher, I have to say I agree with what BTA says here - Good teachers need to be rewarded, and bad teaches need to be kicked. The only problem is coming up with a system to judge, and standardized testing is not the way.
     
  5. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Where we differ is when you say that it is like any other job and that it ought to be easy to evaluate performance BTA. I would love some good kind of performance evaluation because I am fairly certain that I am pretty good teacher but many of the things that make me good are extremely hard to measure which in my opinion is true for most good teachers.

    Standardized testing would if anything reward bad teachers. My horrible colleague loves easily measurable tests and work sheets. All her pupils do day in and day out in English is different grammar exercises with attached keys and all the students are expected to do the exact things whether they are complete beginners or near fluent in the language. Extremely easy for her to evaluate how her students are doing there. Whether they actually learn what they need to know is irrelevant as long as they can fill in the correct form of the verb "be" in a work sheet. For her it is easy though, with her measurements she knows exactly how good her students are and any sort of standardized testing to evaluate teacher performance would just be the same thing applied to teachers.
     
  6. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Not taking sides here, but many of us are in non-teaching jobs that have piss-poor metrics for measuring job performance and the setting of rewards from said metrics. Teachers are hardly unique in that aspect.

    I do agree they are underpaid, but most work for the government here in the us, so what do they expect? What does your appointed lawyer make as comapred to the one you hire? I always thought that teaching was more of a calling and the reward is not in the pay..... but that's just me.
     
  7. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I have yet to see a fundamental difference pointed out and explained here.

    I didn't say it was necessarily easy; I gave a simplistic method and have yet to see an explanation for why it would not work. Aldeth gave an example implementation that was flawed, but that doesn't indict the method.

    If it is known what they need to learn, why is it not possible to measure whether they have learned it or not?

    Exactly one of my points, except in California there is no measurement that is acceptable to the unions and so none is performed.
     
  8. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    I'll give it a try. The fundamental difference to me between a teacher and Joe Widget-maker is that there aren't competing ideologies about what is the goal of widget-making whereas there are distinct styles to education that have different goals. You make some widgets, and if they are of a sufficient quality that is completely objective you're good to go, but when there is a division between what you want out of a widget the possibility of an objective judgement is lessened. In a math class it can be argued that the information need only be remembered to make yourself applicable to employment later, whereas in a mandatory English class the goal isn't so clear. I doubt I had to read Beowulf because that will be a necessary part of my job later or that it was of vital importance in the job market to understand transcendentalism. Some people think education should be a strictly fact-memorization vocational process while others think it should be about developing life-long thinkers and learners. The cliche of teaching "what to think" opposed to "how to think" comes to mind. Having objective measurements that judge only the fact memorization part places vast importance on the former at the expense of the latter and I, along with others I presume, resent that. I did terrible in classes where it was all memorization and no free thought or participation. To have that standard be enforced by placing teachers livelihoods on the line just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.


    I'm not seeing the point here. Because other jobs use bad measurements then somehow that means education deserves the same treatment? :rolleyes:
     
  9. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Who said objective measurements could only judge fact memorization? As I asked above, if you know what it is you are trying to teach the students, why can you not measure whether they did in fact learn it? If you're saying that what it is teachers are hired to teach is unknown, then I dispute that.
    No, education doesn't deserve anything different than the rest of the working world, because ANY method of measurement is better than none. When there is no incentive to do better, people generally don't. And what is the incentive in the working world? Recognition of your efforts compared to your peers with such recognition generally being monetary in nature.

    As well, if there is no objective measurement, how do the teachers know if they are doing well compared to their peers or not? Most people have an inflated sense of their own abilities.
     
  10. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    If you have a system that can measure the immaterial things that are partially the goals of some courses like a desire to learn and think independently, or a growing appreciation for the subject matter, that can be directly linked to a teacher and their performance, than by all means, share it. But to state that a system that encourages bad teaching is better than a system that allows you to teach the way you see fit, within reason of course, just doesn't cut it in my book. One way encourages universally bad practices, the other gives the talented teachers the freedom to encourage learning in ways that actually work. As others have stated in this thread, bad teachers can and do get fired and their performances can be reviewed. You act like they can just get away with anything which is simply untrue.

    And so if they DO have something different, it's your duty to take it from them? A race to the bottom only gets you to the bottom, you know. I don't see the point in decrying them for having job security and what is really a modest income.
     
  11. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    As you quoted both BTA and I, I can't speak for BTA but that was NOT my point my friend. I thought my followly paragraph explained my position, apparently not though. So, to follow up, my point was that teachers aren't special cases. I feel many fields need to sure-up/define in better ways how they treat/pay/reward said professions.
     
  12. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    I know that wasn't your point BOV, I just quoted your part to put BTA's statement in context.
     
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  13. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Why would I endorse a system that encourages bad teaching? I have no idea what you are talking about.

    If it cannot be measured to rate a teacher, how can the teacher measure the student's performance to rate how well the student did in the class?

    Demonstrably false, as was documented in the LA Times article series.

    No it's not, at least in California. You know what they do in California for teachers who are so bad (including accusations of child molestation) that they don't feel they can be allowed into a classroom? They put them into a room to do nothing and get paid for it. What do you think they do for the teachers who just don't perform well?

    When the school system is a shambles, and good teachers are let go when budget cuts come just because they are younger and have less years; when the dropout rate is sky-high and students in California rank among the worst in the nation, yes it is my duty to take a method that is obviously not working from them. Absolutely.
     
  14. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Maybe we should change this thread title to "Why does BTA hate all teachers?"

    :lol: :p
     
  15. Gaear

    Gaear ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful

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    Or "BTA's Secret Plot To Oppress Teachers Everywhere Through Performance Standards Subterfuge." ;)
     
  16. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Hehe. You guys crack me up :lol:
     
  17. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    You said any system is better than no system, implying that a system that encourages bad teaching is better than no system at all.

    I never said it was impossible, I merely said that if you have a way to do it then share it. I'm not a teacher so I couldn't tell you how they grade those things, although i'm pretty sure student participation plays a role.

    What L.A Times article? I didn't see it in this thread.

    California is the exception to the rule then. Here in PA we had a teacher get fired for allegations of abuse. That should be changed but i'm not seeing how evaluating teachers performances is relevant to this since this is a case of clear misconduct and not anything to do with actual teaching. You can easily make such things an automatic case for firing without putting in evaluations of dubious effectiveness.

    The school system is in shambles? That's a pretty broad statement with no support, especially when this is somehow being pinned on teachers. So is blaming teachers for drop-out rates.
     
  18. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    And that's true. Any system is better than none so that you can see what works and what doesn't and make adjustments. If you have no system of objective performance measurement, there is nothing for you to look at to see what is working and what is not. So, I am not endorsing a bad system, and nobody has pointed out why the simplistic system I put forward is bad other than issues with specific implementations which could be corrected for.

    It was a series of articles several months ago that looked at the problem in California, performed a system they recommended on a test group of California teachers that statistically looked at whether students got better or worse after being taught by the teachers in the study.

    And do you know what the teacher who got the worst score said? He didn't whine and complain that the method was inaccurate and that he is really a great teacher and is simply misunderstood because he's got all kinds of stuff going for him that can't be measured. No, he was very mature about it and said he didn't realize his performance was so bad, and he'd like to learn what he could be doing differently to improve his performance.

    The teachers unions said hell no, we don't like it, and we object that you did this and made the scores public.

    The point was if the worst of the worst are simply taken out of the classroom and not fired, what about those that are just terrible? They're continuing to teach and getting paid just the same as if they were a fantastic teacher who had put in the same amount of time.

    Great system! One you can be proud of!

    Oh, there's plenty of support if you just take the time to look.
     
  19. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    You'll have to forgive me for not taking your word for it that this article (that I couldn't find in a google search) is definitive proof that these measurements work, and that teachers are somehow to blame for every problem in the education system. I've said my piece on your measurements but I haven't gotten a response that addresses it.
     
  20. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    It would be fair to say that just as my comments are informed by my Canadian experience, Joa's by his Swedish experience, and Baronius by his Hungarian experience, so BTA's is informed by his California experience.
     
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