Wall Street Journal on EU: double standard for applying rules on Hungary

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In case that’s supposed to be a denial that you bumped the thread, I clearly remember seeing your post Sunday at around 9pm CDT and, in an uncharacteristic moment of self-restraint, decided against making a smart-assed comment wondering how a TV sitcom from the 1980’s (“Facts of Life”) would disprove Ragusa’s arguments.

OTOH, if you’re wondering why I would think that your thread bump suggests you want the bickering to continue, feel free to offer another explanation.

Maybe we can have a bickerfest about bickering!

 

No, I don't think I need to react you in a more serious manner. It's a mystery to me why you think it makes you look intelligent if you share that a valid English expression, written with lower case (facts of life) by a non-American person (me), is supposed to have any relation with some "TV sitcom" in my post. Especially when the context where I used it made it pretty clear. As far as I know, trolling is prohibited on BoM (as a direct consequence of one or more rules).

 

The vote is coming up and as things stand now it seems like the EU will withdraw support from Hungary for failing to comply with the rules. Your valiant and vehement lobbying on this gaming forum seems to have been in vain Baronius

 

You must be truly a warm-hearted person, if you can cheer when a country (whose economy is in ruins due to socialist governing) may face the possibility of such serious happenings. If your post was sincere and benevolent, your last sentence wouldn't be there (as we all know I wasn't lobbying here, because the decision is made somewhere else). It's sarcasm. This is what you teach to your children, too?

Those rules seem to "change" when it's about Spain or Greece. Especially when even the Wall Street Journal article, linked in the initial post of this topic, reminded that other EU countries have much higher deficit than Hungary, so EU is just demonstrating power based on double standards.

I have bad news for you, though: next time get more information before eating the hype of your local or internet press. It's clearly a technical issue and Hungary will not lose a cent. It's just a theoretic suspension, it won't have any real consequences. (On a side note, you should know that in European Union, the practice is that the Council of EU usually never vetoes the suggestion of the Commission.)

 

Thus my "uncharacteristic self-restraint".

Whee!!!

Edit: OK, Baronius and Splunge, knock it off, you bozos!

 

If I had any I would teach them that Baronius but lets be serious here for a while. Yes I mock you cause you are so passionate, so one sided such a victim of everything you accuse everyone else of being. You are stuck in an echo chamber of your own making. Yes I find it amusing but that is because if I don't laugh it would scare the beejezus of me.

When democracy fails, when politicians don't live up to the responsibility they have been given. When they abuse the trust of the people then people get angry. They look for alternatives, different alternatives, extreme alternatives. We see it in Greece, we see it in Slovakia, heck we even see it to some extent in Sweden and we most definitely see it in Hungary. People turn to parties and ideas with simple solutions, who can find scapegoats, who promises to fix everything if only evil x, y, z weren't stopping them. They unite the nation against some common enemy, they demonise all opposition and create their own narrative which is the only narrative and the only truth. The world has gone down that path before and it did not lead to anything good.

There are no simple solutions to complicated problems, people aren't out to get you. They are not bad or nice, good or evil they are just people. What they mostly care about is themselves. What the EU cares about is continued existence, if it doesn't start enforcing its rules now the current situation will spiral out of control and the EU will shatter and the EMU will only be remembered as a failed experiment.

End of philosophising.

 

Honestly, how do you know that "democracy fails" and "politicians don't live up to the responsibility they have been given" in Hungary? Because the (ideologically influenced) media writes about it? Because they were some protests? Because EU started some infringement procedures (which number is a several times less than the number of infringement procedures against France or Germany)? Because there were some polls (which are usually not really representative) that showed that the government's support decreased?

I don't doubt there are issues with the Hungarian government too, but it's a bit unthoughtful to judge it so quickly based on half-information. There is a loud minority in Hungary (partially sponsored by socialists), which uses all international possibilities to remove the democratically elected government. There is no true demonizing: that loud minority simply does not accept that people have wanted a major change. Not a change in democracy: a change in state, a change in economy. Honest work was not appreciated in Hungary. Orbán aims to restore the honesty of work. This sounds like an immense demagogy, but if you knew the number of tax cheaters and swindlers in the socialist era, you would understand what I'm talking about. Now, in the Orbán government, tax income of the state became much much bigger than before, and a lot of corruption (usually affiliated with socialists) was removed. This is not what the Hungarian media reports: this is what PEOPLE tell me personally, this is what my friends say (even those who voted for socialists earlier).

There is absolutely no proof that the majority of Hungarian people are unsatisfied with the government, i.e. there is absolutely no evidence (apart from politically motivated press reports) that would prove this in case of Hungary:
"politicians don't live up to the responsibility they have been given. When they abuse the trust of the people then people get angry"

Try not to be the victim of hype. I know it's hard to avoid the influence of media, but try not to let yourself fooled.

It's 15th March soon. Check the news about Hungary in these days (on and after 15th March).

Moreover, regarding your philosophical train of thought, you seem to miss an important point: behind the scenes, everything is controlled by interests and money. This is not conspiracy theory, this is the reality. If you don't believe it, you're misled. I repeat again: most of the EU pressure on Hungary has nothing to do with the "state of democracy in Hungary". There are issues, but not bigger issues than in France or in any other EU country, but Hungary must be punished in order to avoid a precedent: that a government can put extra taxes on financial institutions and banks instead of implementing austerity measures on the already-totally-ruined households and citizens.

You're right: there is no bad and no good, and there is no united international conspiracy against Hungary. But there are interests and money, the world of money which you don't seem to know. Because your press doesn't want you to know. Because press is in the hand of lobby groups everywhere in the world. So there is no good and bad indeed, otherwise the Hungarian government would have been removed already. But our government has international connections too (some of them are powerful), and some countries are on our side too (Poland, Czech Republic, Lithuania).

 

You my friend is a complete idiot, I am sorry but you are. I referred to the previous government of Hungary which led you and your people to vote for Orban.

 

That's pretty weak, Wocky. How is it that you're competent to judge someone an idiot when you say "you is a idiot?" This makes your own credentials for non-idiocy seem ... questionable. (And I hope you don't teach any sort of language courses. )

 

BTA,
just for the record, disagreement means that there is one reality over which there are two valid, if dissenting points of view. We haven't so far exactly succeeded in reaching an agreement over what the reality is. I do not think that that is a problem that can be solved. I assume that a part of that has to do with me lying so often. There also is the time issue. I already have a full time job; I can ill afford another.

To add to that, even to the small extent that there is a agreement on the facts, the differences in opinion are profound. Personally, I do not think that a point of view is legitimate only by merit of being held. If that was different, I would be in "disagreement" with every crazy person that believes in a flat earth, or the protective merits of wearing a tinfoil hat etc. pp. So, with all the due disrespect, speaking of "disagreement" is a gross understatement that gives undue respect where none is owed.

 

Well, at least that leaves the door open for being uncivil if we think the other person is stupid, but not crazy.

 

Gaear, I am an English teacher which doesn't mean I can't make mistakes. Obviously the pronoun you should be followed by "are" instead of "is", however I tricked myself when I was adding "my friend" which is normally followed by "is". This makes it a bit more complicated than it appears, is it "you" who are an idiot or is it "my friend" who is an idiot? If I really wanted to nitpick I would conclude that the proper way of writing what I so sloppily wrote would be "you, my friend, are an idiot". Also, I fail to see how ones grammar skills in any way impact whether you can point out idiocy in others, especially on an internet forum where I at least do not spend much time and effort checking through what I write. Pointing out spelling and grammar mistakes tends to in my experience be the sign of someone who really has nothing to say or add but still wants to get a kick out of feeling better than others. How about you actually read all the posts up to me calling Baronius an idiot to form an informed opinion and then maybe add something relevant to the discussion.

 

I don't feel I was an idiot. But all posts from BoM members in the past 2 months in my Hungary-related topics were referring to Orbán's government, when they used the word "government". So I automatically thought that in your case too. I apologize for misinterpreting your post.

Your full-time job allows you to write philosophical thoughts, I see. Too bad that your allegedly factual Orbán criticism seemed to have come to a miserable end when you received my factual points in post #97, so you could only answer with a joke in post #98 in your emberassment.

Yeah, yeah, sure, when you can't defend your (undefendable) points any more, you suddenly start to have a "full-time job", limited free time, etc.

 

See, isn't it fun being insulted?

 

No, it simply means I have to prioritise what nonsense exactly I answer to in some length, what I answer to with a joke instead of starting again with Adam and Eve in face of an unreceptive audience and what I simply ignore as utter nonsense. It's truly a thankless job. From a cost-benefit analysis point of view calling you for instance a dour fool without a sense of humour would appear concise and as a remarkably economical use of words to get a point across - not that anything like that would ever cross my lips. Heaven forbid.

 

Which of the below is utter nonsense then? Since you completely ignored them, it must be "utter nonsense" -- based on what you've written in your above post.

 

Look, Baronius, we're at post #119 in this thread alone, to no avail. I haven't convinced you by now, and I won't have convinced you on post #1234. You have also made a mockery of yourself. When is enough?