United Kingdom Local Election, 2013

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What does this mean? That if somebody doesn't like the country they're living in (be it lack of opportunities, lack of personal safety, lack of hospitals, lack of freedom etc), they should live there until the country is better (magic?) before they decide to emigrate?

 

I really don't think we can be picky.
http://populationpyramid.net/ Checking through that is sobering, yes the US is in a better place than Europe but all developed countries are in for a rough awakening when every productive member of society will have 4-5 geezers to take care of.

 

No, you are reading that from the wrong perspective. A nation needs to take care of its own citizens before it starts worrying about the citizens of another nation.

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That doesn't make sense. Which is more desirable?

1 productive member of society taking care of 4-5 geezers or

1 productive member of society taking care of 4-5 geezers and 3-4 non productive immigrants.

While neither is ideal the latter is much worse.

 

This still makes no sense... so if a citizen emigrates from country A to country B, country A should pay for the benefits to the citizen even though the citizen no longer resides in country A?

 

Yes, and it has reached this point long before you were born. It will continue to be at that point long after we are dead. It's subjective, and just a feeling, a mindset, a cultural zeitgeist.

 

You seem to be running on the assumption that all immigrations are non-productive. Not only is this very sweeping, it's also very wrong.

 

I couldn't agree more. Maryland isn't exactly home to a huge number of recent immigrants, and this is of course anecdotal. But from my experience, there seem to be jobs that you see a lot of Hispanics performing, and by and large, these people are working their asses off. They aren't great jobs, but they definitely work hard. They tend to be outdoor jobs as well - which is why you see them. They work for landscaping companies, construction, dock workers - jobs that require you to work outside in the heat of the summer and/or the cold of the winter. They aren't easy jobs to do.

Moreover, if you're talking about the 12 million illegal immigrants in the US, it defies belief if you think they are being unproductive. They're off the grid. As non-citizens they don't get benefits like unemployment if they lose their jobs. If they lose their job and can't find another one, they are SOL. So you better believe they work hard at what they do.

 

No, that isn't what I said at all. What I'm saying is that country A should have the right to determine who from country B should be allowed to immigrate and these decisions should be made wisely. If country A can't take care of its own poor, needy, and homeless then the last thing they need is country B's poor, needy, and homeless.

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You are reading things that I'm not typing. I work with some very productive immigrants and am proud to do so. However, I am saying, under no circumstances should we offer benefits/welfare to immigrants for if we have to than we should never have let them in the country in the first place.

The classic example is the family of the Boston Marathon bombings. They came to the US and were granted political asylum. They then proceeded to get in excess of $100,000 of public assistance and were going back home for periods of up to six months at a time. Seems pretty clear that they didn't really need political asylum and they came here for an education and a handout from a government to stupid to realize it is bleeding to death.

 

There will always be poor, needy and homeless, people always fall through the cracks, everywhere in the world. It took me this long to figure out what you mean, because this kind of simple reasoning burns up upon entry into the real world. Even if everybody was housed, clothed and fed, even if every parent looked after their children, even if elderly people without any family were given special care, even if all that was taken care of... as long as there are mental and personality disorders and addictions, there will always be homeless people.

 

Reading all the talk about immigration, it is scary to see how the media has already redefined language so as to force a certain outcome of any debate:
- Immigrated citizens are not real citizens, and any help they get from the government is immoral and offensive.
- Immigrants are useless by definition. Discussing this is like questioning gravity.
- It is fine to discuss the fates of non-indigenous citizens, in order to find a solution to your feeling that they are responsible for your problems.
- If you have an immigrant friend who falls in line with the prevailing cultural mindset, then your dancing bear excuses your own opinions. He got his, Chen!

You know, in Japan and China, people have a general feeling that there are just too many people in the country. It's all relative, of course, because nobody is actually starving. From an environmental perspective, 2 humans of opposite gender on the planet is already a disaster waiting to happen. But at least this attitude includes themselves in the equation. When you question the right to exist of a group you are not part of, then that can only lead to conflict. If you're determined to see immigrated citizens in your country as different than you, then at least mind your own bloody business.
The difference between Chinese and westernized attitudes is summarized by this:
http://www.zompist.com/amercult.html
Most western cultures believe: "You think most problems could be solved if only people would put aside their prejudices and work together. "
Chinese believe: "You think most problems could be solved if only people would work hard together. "
Don't get me wrong - Chinese are loaded up with prejudices, superstitions and so on. But they won't work directly *against* you. They've got their priorities straight when it comes to living together, and you lot haven't. You people need to stop picking on a weaker group to feel more solidarity with your own kin. Those white politicians, bankers, stockbrokers, and hedge-fund managers are not suddenly going to let their wealth 'trickle down' once all the foreigners are gone. They will continue to find loopholes to abuse the system regardless of what the rest of us decide to do to each other.

What I think people in the west are scared about, is that they may have to become more like the Chinese: Work harder, for longer hours, for less pay and less benefits. Chinese are quickly becoming more westernized, with better jobs, so things will even out eventually. The advantages that the west got from the colonial era will not persist forever. Immigrants will sometimes choose to relocate and change passport to enjoy better jobs, better health care and so on, but you people need to get the notion out of your head that this is a form of system abuse. It is not. There are far worse things, REAL system abuse, that goes under people's radar all the time, because the media can't, won't or finds it too difficult/risky to report on it. Those are the things that are really crippling countries and costing people money. Immigration is an easy target because these people are in a weak position. Weak people are not strong enough to drag wealthy nations down. But it's a good way to introduce audiences to hardened language. If you've held anti-immigration opinions of your own which passed judgement on others, you'll be less likely to object when the next group gets targeted. Divide and conquer - it's as old as the Romans. It works on me too: I feel no more sympathy when those nasty racist OAPs get their pensions cut, and I wouldn't feel the need to fight for their rights any more than they'd fight for my half-Chinese son's rights.

 

Would you rather Timothy McVeigh blow up your cities instead? If I'm going to be blown up, rather it be by a nice friendly white man, right?

 

I'd rather not get blown up all. The point of mentioning the bombers wasn't to imply that all immigrants want to blow people up. It was to highlight a high profile recent case of people immigrating to the US and immediately starting to drain the coffers as opposed to adding to them.

 

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

 

That is a great quote with incredible meaning and full of honorable intentions. Unfortunately in today's world we need to be realistic, not idyllistic. I am ashamed to admit that and I definitely feel my grandfathers, if they were still alive, would be mad at me for saying it but the world has changed since the early days of the USA.

 

Actually, the humour is in the fact that many Americans can be proud of their icons while at the same time dislike what the icons stand for.

OK, it’s a dark, ironic humour, but still…

It’s just too bad that this line of thinking isn’t more broadly applied, such as with the Second Amendment. (I’m not necessarily directing this specifically at you, Blades, but I was hoping to turn this thread into another gun control debate. )

 

Jesus, what's a matter with all you American's on here? Is your country so bad these days that you've all become so bitter? You all sound like this guy...



But really, noone is any better than anyone else in this world, no matter what your skin colour or what particular plot of land you happened to be lucky/unlucky enough to be born on. Everyone should have the same chances in life. Attitudes like this from people who are supposed to be cultured and uplifted saddens me.

 

great point barmy, considering the original topic... you ever see This is England? similar scene: