Turkey and EU

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LNT, I didn't get that... what does the History Channel have to do with all this?

 

Well, the history channel, as well as Discovery channel for that matter, show the same WW2 documentaries over and over again. Everyone who tunes in to such a channel, has probably run into the same footage of the battle of Kursk, Stalingrad, El Alamein, Monte Casino, etc....

He's probably looking forward to footage of new fought battles, like in the near future.

 

Appetite for destruction - both in Europe and the US! We should work with that, shouldnt we?

As it would seem that some Europeans have grown tired of peace, we might as well put this bloodlust to some good use.
So... in the past Turkey was bent on conquering Europe. Instead of ruining our continent once and for all, I propose we return that favour. I mean, really, they want to be a part of Europe so badly. Lets speed up the process. The time is just right! Think about it. Our American friends have given a fine example with Iraq.

Everyone would be happy, no?

Europe could vent off its destructive urges. It might even bolster our economy... Turkey can finally enjoy the benefits of the West she so longs for (freedom, democracy, what have you). And the US, well... has some exciting news to drool over and, on top, can rest assured she has given the best of examples with the 'liberation' of Iraq. We do not even have to fabricate a reason for war - like the threat of WMDs or something. Turkey occupies European territory...
Looks perfect to me!

 

What are Turkey's natural resources other than Doner kebab ? Is it worth the effort ?

 

Well! If nothing of worth can be had in Turkey, it would at the very least bring us closer to the regions rich in oil. Who knows what the next step would then be. The US, after all, could do with some 'assistance' in the Middle East.

 

The Shaman, sorry for the late reply, but I was off for the country.

Yes, because we kicked their asses. Anyway, the fact they did that all to my Slavic Brethren from the South harms and saddens me the same way.
As for the tartars, we dealt properly with them a long time ago. talking about Tatars, the puppet goverment from Ukraine appointed a Buryat as Prime Minister! they never cease to amaze me, but that is a different discussion...

As I said before, I oppose Turkey entry for the said reasons, but the choice is for the Europeans to make when it comes down to it. My only concern is that Slavs are joining the EU now, so it is starting to bother me...
By the way, I would not care if muslim radicals get the upper hand in Turkey. Fighting an open enemy is always better than combating a disguised treat.

Yes, I have a link, a Western source mind you. http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,201588,00.html
As you can see, as stupid and pathetic as it may seem, they decided to invade Russian land after they got what they wanted.
These people dont know law or civility. There is no way to deal with them with any human decency.
Regards.

 

Some of the comments here are interesting, but I thought some could use the interjection of facts.

The EU's 2004 GDP -- so far as you can use that term with the EU -- growth rate was 2.4%.

Turkey's was 8.2%.

The EU's GDP per person was $26900. Turkey's was $7400.

The EU's unemployment rate was 9.5%.

Turkey's unemployment rate was 9.3%.

The CIA World Fact Book -- which is where I got these numbers -- does not list a poverty figure for the EU, but it says 20% of Turkey is below the poverty line.

EU's inflation rate was 2.1%. Turkey's was 9.3%.

So basically Turkey is growing very quickly, but it started from a much poorer rate and still has a long way to go to catch up to the EU average. It does not, however, have a lot of unemployed people -- at least no more so than the European average.

Does any of that really matter?

I think the confusion is due to a lack of criteria for what is necessary for EU membership. If it were solely economic considerations, then many of the most recent admittees should have been left out. If it is solely geography that determines eligibility, then the answer should be obvious.

 

Well, there is still the matter of human rights...they don't care all that much about that topic overthere. That, plus the "issue" Armenia seem to be the biggest problem.

 

Well, I will not try to argue with the likes of nationalistic racist morons like Svyatoslav. I personally believe that Turkey will never enter the EU. Because of the fear Western countries have of Muslims. A fear that has become hate. A hate that is fueling the recent international paranoia. A fear that is also taking away the rights of their citizens, rendering some of the recent laws fascistic. Here in France Muslims are called islamistes something that has aquired the semantic of virus or plague.

Turkey is more tolerant than you would think. During the Ottoman Empire, Jews that fled the Middle Age Inquisition found refuge in the Empire. There is still a large community of descendants still living in Turkey. The countries the Empire used to invade were allowed to keep their religious faith and languages. More recently, Atatürk gave the right to vote to women in 1930. This is 6 years earlier than the UK and 17 years earlier than France. The orthodox Papaz (Pope) lives peacefully in a small island off Istanbul. Nobody ever bothered him. Turkey is also a laic democracy. Many European countries are still monarchies.

Turks are not Europeans they originate from Central Asia, there is still a Turkish community in China. The language is syntaxically similar to japanese, korean or finnish. As for natural ressources they have half of the World's ressources of boron a costly element which has a lot of high-tech uses ranging from aerospace to medicine.

I think the Greek fellows above hate Turkey because them Greeks were kicked out of the territories in Turkey they managed to occupy after WWI. One must not overlook how they treat the Turkish minority still living in Greece: sub-humans discriminated from important jobs with absolutly no right to complain, shut up dirty Turk. One just has to read some of the above comments to imagine the situation.

This is the reason why Northern Cyprus was invaded quickly and efficiently in 1974, to free the oppressed minority. A referendum has been recently taken to reunite Cyprus but Greeks idiotically refused it majoritarily for no reason except their hate. What they probably want is all the community to leave or die.

There is also a greek community living in Turkey, they have never been bothered. You can't say the same of the Kurdish community. Their autonomous zealotry have mostly been financed by England and France. They would have loved to create a puppet Kurdistan in between Irak and Turkey. Giving them a shortcut to petrol. Unfortunately for them Bush has found a faster but not as elegant route.

Turks and Greeks have no reason to hate each other. They share a common history. They have almost the same cuisine. They play tavla (backgammon) while drinking the same coffee and liquor. The Greek government is by the way supportive of the adhesion in the EU.

The situation used to be in a lesser degree similar in Bulgaria. When in the early nineties they opened their frontiers, half a million Turkish descendant crossed the border in a matter of days, because they were so sick of 70 years of mistreatment (compulsory name changing, discrimination, no liberty of cult). A tent city had to be improvised in Edirne(major city near the Bulgarian border).

Turkey has no buisness joining a EU that has a hard time inventing ridiculous reasons to refuse them. Why would anyone want to join somebody that doesn't like nor respect you because of your differences? Turkey is also a highly capitalistic country which explains.

 

@Phase Demon

Really? I think that you forget the Grey Wolves hanging doll like patriarch or the continuous attempt of the turkish state to steal the property of patriarchate or the refusal to operate the theological school.

First of all, I don't hate you even if many of my compatriots do, and this hate doesn't originate from the events, which followed WWI, it's much older. As for the minority, it's not totally turkish, many of them are muslim pomaks. As for the discrimination issue, although I admit that there is some prejudice, there is nothing like that you describe. They are greek citizens with full rights, they have representatives in the parliament, they have special schools where they are taught both languages, they have religious freedom, they are more than 250000 and their number is increasing. Can you claim the same thing for the greek minority in Turkey?

There was an oppression of the turkish minority but that wasn't the cause of the invasion. If that was realy the cause, could you explain why does Turkey have still more than 40.000 troops and heavy equipment on the island, why has it created a false state that only Turkey has recognised, why thousands immigrants from eastern Turkey have been brought on the island?

Then I guess that there is a metaphysical reason, which is responsible for the reduce of the greek community in Constantinople (Instabul for you) to 2500 people from 125000 and to almost 200 from 6000 in the island of Imvros and Tenedos (sorry, I don't know their turkish names). The massacre of 1955 organized by Menderes must never happen. Also, the same metaphysical reason must explain why the turkish state has a huge number of convictions from the European court of human rights for its attemps to steal the property of the greek community in Constantinople, Imvros and Tenedos.

Edit:

A democracy where the army can take decisions about the foreign and the domestic policy, it's not exactly a democracy. Also, the european monarchies that you are reffering to, are constitutional monarchies where the king or the queen are functioning more as a symbol of tradition and unity than as actual figures of political power.

[ October 01, 2005, 14:29: Message edited by: BOC ]

 

Don't even bother I was going to leave anyway as I'm not the kind to regret or retract what I said. Here's for the so-called free speech.

Well farewell Sorcerers. I'll let you happily macerate in your fantasy worlds.

 

Yeah well...uhh....yo mama so old her birth certificate is in Roman numerals! Take that! Erm...

 

Well, as a real Turk who lives in Turkey, I do believe I have some right to say a few things:

First of all, thanks to Phase Demon, who gently PMed me about this topic going on. I do believe he said the right things, perhaps in a furious way, too bad he is gone I will miss him.

Anyway, I can not believe the prejudice and sheer hatred to Turks in this subject, and knowing it also comes from our neighbour Greece really pains me. I never hated Greece, or Greece people, nor I blamed them for what they did in WW, and I am sure most of my people think like me. Sure, our countries have battled fiercely, and we were able to save our lands from bitter invasion, but I think it was not Greece's fault, merely other 'bigger' powers were using them; and no one can blame us neither, we are neither barbaric, savage, nor war-liking. We only protected ourselves in WW, and I thought things have changed since then.

Talking about Greece, we share a lot of things in common, and I beleieved things had been improving between us. It saddens me that old prejudices and hatred are still boiling, and I just hope that it is still little plays of the 'bigger' powers at work, I do not want to see Greece as our enemy.

There was a very old saying in Turkey, ''The only friend of a Turk is another Turk'', but I am happy to find some other friends here, special thanks to everybody who defended my country and people here with their friendly posts.

As for the EU, we are doing our very best to join, but know that our chances are slim. Sure we are not perfect, but which country is? At least we are working hard for improvement. It is essential for everybody to know that we are far, far different than other muslim countries. We have democrasy, and since Ataturk we have been developing rapidly and willingly to reach the modern culture. And I think we are not far from it, Turkey is a developed country worthy of EU, as I said maybe we have flaws, but not wanting us becasue of the pure prejudice and old hatred is just not fair, to say the least. We bore no ill will against any country, government or people as Ataturk said ''Peace at home (country), Peace in the World''. But we do not flinch to protect ourselves if need be, just like any other country.

Forgive my limited English, I just wanted to share my idea. If it offends you in some way or other, it was not my intention to do so, mind you.

 

And all the time I thought it was Austria that were balking at Turkish entry...

Interestingly, according to the BBC website, a greater percentage of the Greek population support Turkish membership than both French and German.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4305500.stm

But it woould appear a deal has been reached. Over to Ankara.

 

Well, Phase was way off on the history -- the idea that the Greek Orthodox were never bothered is ridiculous, so kudos to whomever corrected him.

But more to the point -- it is ancient history. We have to look at what is going on right now.

The Greeks (as a whole) may never love the Turks (as a whole), but that has very little to do with letting Turkey join the EU -- or with whether individual Greeks love individual Turks. I do not much care for Parisians as a whole, but I am certain that I would get along famously with certain ones, and if I meet one on the streets I do not automatically assume that I will dislike him -- and I have no problem with cooperating with Parisians in mutual self-interest.

As I see it, the outstanding issues are the recognition of Cyprus (Turkey must recognize only one goverment there), human rights violations by the State, and the actions of Turkey's military.

But what do I know? I am only an American.

 

Its funny how someone can 'not care' for a nation, until they meet a pretty girl/handsome man...

Turkey can only be good for Europe. Some people are concerned about 'religious differences', but Turkey is a secular country, and its strictly enforced, and as for human rights, Turkey gave women the right to vote during the 1930's. Lets not forget their wonderful food, culture, rich history etc. I can think of very few disadvantages of allowing Turkey. If you look back, Ireland was a bad choice for the EU, as they were being 'breast fed' for many years, but things are picking up. It will not be such a struggle for Turkey.

 

^Thanks for your support pal!

I am very curious, will my country ever join UE? It has been discussed here so long it looks like a dream!

USA seems to support us, so maybe we have a chance?

 

The closer the membership of Turkey gets, the more rises the pressure for the EU to get a working constitution. Mainly to reach the point for the EU to be able to decide about its budget and about its economical policy. Simply put, the EU is mainly an umbrella organisation for regional subsidisation, predominantly in the agrarian sector. That's were nearly 50% of all EU money goes.

And Turkey happens to be just another agrarian giant that would get subisidies and burst the EU budget, forcing those subsidies to get cut. Therefore, it would be logical that countries that get subsidies would be against Turkish membership, while countries that are opposed to those subsidies would support it.

As for not functioning. My understanding is, that the Austrians were opposed to the wording of the negotation with the Turks because the wanted the EU to restart negotations with Croatia. Negotations that were opposed by other EU-members. That changed their minds after Austria changed its mind....

Edit: Yes I know how Coratia is spelled!

[ October 04, 2005, 22:09: Message edited by: Iago ]