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Turkey and EU

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by BOC, Dec 16, 2004.

  1. Dengo Gems: 8/31
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    A rather tasteless thing happened here. Now this (or this ) doesn't meet Copenhagen criteria. They dismissed this professor from his university for his speech. I listened him on TV too. I don't completely agree with him but he shouldn't have been dismissed. But still it is a good thing, people are starting to discuss things that have never been discussed. I would never think someone would dare to criticize Ataturk a few years ago. That event is a result of our Europe adventure. Even though I don't believe we will enter EU, freedom wind that blows these days in Turkey is nice.
     
  2. Argohir Gems: 10/31
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    Yes, dismissing him is not true; because being an idiot is not a crime. But I can't make myself feel sorry about him.
     
  3. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
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    Can you please elaborate why you think this man is an idiot please?
     
  4. Argohir Gems: 10/31
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    I will do it gladly, Mithrantir. He said:

    As AKP established this panel and as I know them; he thinks more or less same as them. And they are the spine of "backwardism" in Turkey. You can see it by reading about their past. They want a "strictly" religious country if not a theocratic one; and constantly make laws about it. They are (and I am sure he is, because they won't call a panelist who doesn't support their ideas) the main supporters of pre-republic times. And it is backwardism. On the other hand, if you look at Atatürk's deeds and ideas, you can understand he is one of the most forwardist leaders in the history of Turks. So it seems to me that he tries to show the roles reversed.

    Because of the reasons above, I think he tries to change one of the most obvious facts. He comes from a "backwardist" tradition, which exists from the first days of republic.

    To sum the things up, I think he is an idiot because he doesn't seem to be able to differentiate black and white, or he intentionally doesn't differentiate them.

    And lastly
    They won't if they read some history books. And these books don't need to be written by our more or less subjective writers; they can read foreign history books.

    Would you kindly give me feedback about it, what do you think?
     
  5. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
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    That's because there is no Black and White. Everything's just a shade of gray.

    That doesn't necessarily mean that he was very progressive. He only needed to be more progressive than the alternative at his time. Which wasn't very difficult.
     
  6. Dengo Gems: 8/31
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    I think that professor is quite intelligent. I've watched a discussion program about this event on TV and he speaks much more intelligently than Ataturkists who say Ataturk was progressive and this can't be discussed. Everyone can make mistakes so Ataturk probably made some too. For example after "hat revolution", lots of people who didn't want to wear hats were killed. Also there has been other human right abuses in his time(generally against religious Muslims and Kurds). So while we progressed somehow we also gone backward in some areas. But still generally he was more progressive (for his time) than being backwards. So I don't agree this professor completely.

    OTOH he says "Kemalism leads more to backwardism than forwardism". If he means current Kemalists than I agree this completely. Since today most Kemalists want a country where nobody thinks different, nobody criticizes our holy totems and everybody works for our "national plots". He who doesn't obey should be dismissed from his job, imprisoned and killed or exiled from country if possible. I think Germans had a dream like that in the past. :rolleyes:

    Anyway this event will make us lose points in our EU game.
     
  7. Equester Gems: 18/31
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    yes firering proffessor that disagree with the current view of national hero is the hallmark of a free society. And most likely this event just confirm people who are against turkey joining EU, that indeed Turkey aint living up to our standards of a free society.
     
  8. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
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    I am very saddened to see that you didn't even read the article before judging him. His ideas don't look backward to me and if i may say so the same applies for anyone who has grown in Europe.
    As for the
    i would like to point you to the second link that Dengo provided. In there you will find out that even the officials of AKP (which is viewed by you as a backward party, i don't know) expressed their frustration for the views this professor expressed on the panel no less.

    To be totally honest he looks to me more open minded and able to see clearly the future than the majority of the Turkish people.

    He expresses some valid concerns and some proposals of him are at least a step forward.

    Ataturk may have been more forwardistic than the Sultans in some things. But frankly the same ideals and politics since the 1920s, have become a little (to put it gently) old now.

    As you can see in the threads here and i guess in every discussion you can have with a European, in order for Turkey to get in the EU some things must change. And one of these is the way of thinking.

    Ataturk is like some kind of a god to Turkey and i agree that a certain level of respect and memorials must be there for the man that reformed the State.

    But i am afraid that you have crossed the line of just respecting the memory of this man and have gone to a level of blind fanaticism.

    Furthermore the State control over all aspects of things, sounds a little dictatorship to me, not a Republic.
     
  9. Argohir Gems: 10/31
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    Yes, I read it and this frustration doesn't seem real to me. This is a common tactic for them after screwing the things up.

    More open minded than who?

    But some of his ideas are general and beyond time.

    Yes it should but it must change for ourselves, not for entering EU. Did I ever mentioned that I am against entering EU for now? And if you say it about his dismissal, you are right.

    Yes there are some kemalists who think Atatürk's ideas are unquestionable. They are not right but he is also greater than you think and his ideas are still more valid than you think.

    I think I answered it in the above sentence. I am not fanatic and I accept he has mistakes like everybody has, but I think you are underestimating his deeds and ideas.

    I agree with you. He shouldn't have been dismissed.

    Yes, but this was a rough explanation of his actions.

    I don't agree. They are more forwardist than his kind, I think. And you can't say they want something different than Kemalists, they also want a country like that.

    I want to make research about him but nowadays I am short of time. And I think this is a little offtopic. If the arguing on this professor continues, I think we need a new topic for that.
     
  10. Dengo Gems: 8/31
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    He is a real liberal not a AKP supporter. He seems to be more near to LDP (Liberal Democrat Party).

    AKP is selling him though, they turned their backs on him. Cowards. Doesn't Erdogan whine about being imprisoned for the poem he read?

    I can't agree this completely. For example Ataturk's ideas about independence will never get old and they can be applied to every country. OTOH nobody wears hats anymore and we can't kill people for that. :grin:
     
  11. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
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    @Argohir
    The "you" was referring to the Turkish population and not you personally. What you believe is shown by your actions not your words.

    You are an independent state as always you were. And if you mean independence in economical terms or otherwise, i think you will find out that this train is lost long time now.
    Sorry but the Turkish economy is very bad and you know it. Not to mention that the Guardians of Ataturks ideals, have managed to tie you behind the chariot of one superpower.

    I was not talking about this ideals but rather the points of view that Ataturk had in the field of interracial affairs.

    Truth is that the political position of Ataturk can be defined as a nationalsocialistic one, from what i have read. A rather outdated policy now, and more trouble maker than trouble solver if you ask me.

    But still this is my point of view, Turkey has a decision to make and that decision comes with many changes. Whether you acknowledge this or not, it will happen. Changes will occur either way.
     
  12. Argohir Gems: 10/31
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    @Mithrantir: You seem to know Turkey and its history better than most SPers here (except the Turkish ones).
     
  13. Kara Ay Gems: 2/31
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    Since Ataturk there's been few who understood his ideas completely and none of them has been active in politics...

    @Mithrantir:"Guardians of Ataturk" as you call a few people couldn't understand him any worse...They have betrayed all of his ideas by doing just the opposite...I can safely say that since Ataturk there's been no political leader who understood him and followed his ideals...

    And Ataturk often cricitized socialists...He wasn't a socialist,he just did the factors at that time required ....He wanted his own people to build a country but after WW I and the war between Greece and Turkey...Turks were very poor so the government had to be the investor....

    [ December 06, 2006, 14:16: Message edited by: Kara Ay ]
     
  14. Argohir Gems: 10/31
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    I think you can't cricitize someone socialist, you can only celebrate someone because of it.
     
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