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Turkey and EU

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by BOC, Dec 16, 2004.

  1. Dendri Gems: 20/31
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    Racial aspects are not my concern.
    You will have noticed that I wasnt arguing from that point of view, Carcaroth. I would be grateful not to read bullpoo like racism in this thread.

    Values and traditions, however, are what worries me. As well as the political unision of the EU - which is destined to be about more than money.
    I dont see how Europe will unite politically with Turkey. Never mind that the Turks dont have the intention for that but are mainly interested in the economic benefits the EU has to offer.

    Turkey is already a participant of Europe's free trade area. There would be no additional benefit for them by joining the EU in matters of trade.

    But who should pay for the subsidiaries that Turkey has a right to as a member? What is your solution there? Not giving them any aid at all and letting a huge underdevloped country join?
    The net payers of the EU cannot even afford to help develope the ten new members. Let alone a giant like Turkey.

    And what about Europe's secular political system and them Turks having elected an islamic government? Speaking of Europe and its values...

    Oh well.
     
  2. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    The borders of the sub-continent of Europe have always been a bit hazy. If we look culturally and historically the history of Europe has been as closely tied to what is now Turkey as it has been to what is Spain. The Ottoman Empire was called the sick man of Europe you know. Looking even further back the Roman and Greek empires both saw Turkey as part of more or less their heart land.
     
  3. Pac man Gems: 25/31
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    Well, as long as there aren't any drastic changes overthere, they shouldn't be allowed in. The army still has way too much influence to call it a real democracy. There have been some Turkish political refugees here in the Netherlands that made it very clear that Turkey is still deceiving everyone. And then there's still the issue with the Kurds and the Armenians.

    They don't need us and we certainly don't need them, so why change anything ?
     
  4. Carcaroth

    Carcaroth I call on the priests, saints and dancin' girls ★ SPS Account Holder

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    Dendri, the statement on racism was not directed at you, hence it was in a seperate paragraph. But when people state different culture, different people and different religions as valid reasons for not including someone then yes, it comes across as racism, whether inteded or not. You mention subsidies, well I actually object to the whole concept of subsidies, particularly because Britain is asked to pay lots of them, but gets nothing in return.

    The EC's findings on torture:

    Torture: "The authorities have adopted a zero tolerance policy towards torture and a number of perpetrators have been punished. Torture is no longer systematic, but numerous cases of ill-treatment, including torture, still continue to occur and further efforts will be required to eradicate such practices."

    I'd like to know which particular values and traditions are being called into question that Turkey doesn't share, and actually how they would affect the EU and how it works. The ones I think are important, are those which the EU has concerns about, and unless these concerns are allayed then I don't see Turkey being accepted, however if they are allayed then I can see no reason to prevent access.

    Politically, the EU countries are very rarely in unison anyway. And the point is that Turkey ELECTED it's government. I find it difficult to believe that many of the European governments do not have one religious bent or other.
     
  5. Pac man Gems: 25/31
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    For starters, Turkey is Islamic, we are Christian. How many examples do you need to realise that the two don't click ?
     
  6. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Are you a religious christian Pac Man? I know I am not and I also know that there are many Turks who are not religious muslims. What we can hope for is that Turkey will evolve to see religioun as a quaint superstitioun of no real consequence as most of the developed countries in the world have done.
     
  7. Pac man Gems: 25/31
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    It doesn't matter if i'm religeous or not, this isn't about me or you or whoever. I'm merely saying that whereever Islam meets Christianity, there's bound to be trouble.

    Now, i don't know about your place, but we're having enough problems in our backyard as it is at the moment, we really could do without any more.
     
  8. Carcaroth

    Carcaroth I call on the priests, saints and dancin' girls ★ SPS Account Holder

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    What, in the same way that Catholics and Protestants don't click (Northern Ireland for example) or as the EU is secular as was pointed out earlier, in the same way that Left Wing and Right Wing governments don't click?
     
  9. Pac man Gems: 25/31
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    Dude, if you can't even see what i mean, then i won't even bother going any deeper into this.
     
  10. Shadowdrinker Gems: 1/31
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    pacman i am really sorry for what happened to van gogh but the person who killed him wasnt turkish
     
  11. Pac man Gems: 25/31
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    I wasn't refering to v. Gogh, where on earth did you see me say that ?

    It's a historical fact, that's all, and i don't think it will improve in the time to come. On the contrary, it will probably only get worse.
     
  12. Shadowdrinker Gems: 1/31
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    you are very pesimistic there is no need for that.Believe me Turkey doesnt have a secret agenda and muslims jews and christians has lived in peace for centuries under the Ottman empire that can also happen under european union.To us european union is more than an economical union it is a union of values and we mean to embrace those values
     
  13. Pac man Gems: 25/31
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    Fair enough. But tell me, how does the average Turk feel about all this talk ? And how does he feel where he stands in this world ? Does he feel more Asian, or European ? Or a little bit of both ?
     
  14. Shadowdrinker Gems: 1/31
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    well to tell the truth i think the avarage Turk doesnt really know much about the EU,as many say they think EU will bring prosperity to the country.but they start to learn that many things in their lives will change with full membership.they know the country will start talking about things that werent talked like the subjects Cyprus and the problem with the Armanians.
    i cant say there is an homogenous idea as to where Turkey stands in this world. some think they are more asian than european but i can say they are a minority.as for me i feel i am a little bit of both
     
  15. BOC

    BOC Let the wild run free Veteran

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    I was the one who has started this thread but I haven't say what my opinion is. Now, I think that it's time to say it.

    Geography: If the decision is based strictly on geography then my answer is no. Turkey doesn't belong to Europe from a geographical point of view. The fact that a small part of Turkey belongs to the european continent does't make the country european. Britain has territories in South America, does this make Britain a south american country? Of course someone could say that if Turkey is not a European country, why are the turkish football clubs and national teams participating in all the european tournaments? Well, the answer is simple, more customers for UEFA.

    Religion: Totally irrelavant. The Union is called European not Christian.

    Culture: I don't think that the cultural differences especially with the west part of Turkey are so great that they could create unsolved problems.

    Economy: While I agree that a full turkish membership has the potential to benefit the EU in the far future, what concerns me is that the cost of the accession is too high. IIRC the accession of Turkey is going to cost more than the asseccion of all the last ten members. If EU can afford it, then the answer is yes, if not then the answer is no.

    Politics: This is the part that it causes me the most headaches. I agree that Turkey has made huge steps towards democracy since 1980 but the army has still too much influence. Also, from a techinical point of view, Turkey currently occupies territory of a member of EU and it denies to recognize the Republic of Cyprus. Also, another problem that arises from a full turkish is membership is that EU will have direct borders with the hottest areas of the planet and this could have unthinkable consequenses. So the question that rises is if it is more beneficial to have Turkey out of EU and unbound by EU laws and treaties or if it is more beneficial to have it inside the EU and therefore obliged to act according to the EU laws and treaties? I would say that the second option is far more better.

    And now we come to the hot potato. Let's be sincere people, all the above (religion, human rights, economy etc) play a huge role but the real reason for the negative opinion about the full membership is that europeans are afraid that a huge wave of Turks will migrate to the rest of Europe with serious concequences to the demographics of the whole continent. I don't know what to think about this. The liberal in me says "So what?" but the nationalist is screaming "****ing no". Perhaps the solution would be to forbid the turks to migrate to the rest of europe even if this is something that is against the principles of the EU.

    @Iago

    Why can these countries hardly be called european? Even the word Europe is an ancient greek name. Unless you believe that Europeans are only those of anglosaxon origin, this claim is absurd.
     
  16. Shadowdrinker Gems: 1/31
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    although i always had the opportunity to study,live and work in europe,i insisted on staying in Turkey.some of my friends tell me i am stupid but i think they are overestimating EU just like many of you underestimate Turkey
     
  17. Dendri Gems: 20/31
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    Carcaroth, whatever opinion one has on subsidies (Aye, yes. Not subsidiaries :D ) – they helped Greece, Spain, Portugal etc. become the nations they are today. Helping to improve other nation's economy, infrastructure, standards of living by giving financial aid is a reason for Europe's progress and success as a whole. Part of its attraction, too. That and the certainty that we simply have to work together.

    Still, you didnt address that point. And your objections to subsidies wont be enough of a reason to deny Turkey's claim for them.

    So here we have one future source of big trouble.

    I say this is nothing more than semantic mojo. Tortures continue despite being banned by the authorities? Can you imagine such a situation in your country?
    Sorry, I dont fall for this.
    There have been reports on our media just how determined the authorities of Turkey are in this matter. Let me tell you - I wasn’t impressed.
    It’s a lip-service, nothing more.

    I will try...

    Remember when Prime Minister Erdogan (sp?) intended to make divorce illegal (the very idea is alarming)? His reaction when the EU piped up? He was quite furious.
    There are many such issues. Human rights, the rights of religious minorities, the treatment of women, the military and its dominance, Cyprus.

    And now, before the negotiations for an entry into the EU have even begun they have made it clear that no more interference from others into internal affairs will be tolerated. A fine spirit, no?

    It doesnt sound very cooperative to me. Their general attitude and reaction to opposition is not proper. Thats what I meant with lack of political culture. Turkey will need an understandig of it because there will be a lot of opposition in Europe. So much bickering around here. :p
    And I ask you: What is the EU without cooperation, without trying to find a middle way.
    How are we to become a political union with a member that behaves in this way, has so many flaws. Values that clash with ours. You really think this nation will change in a couple of years?!
    And its not a small nation like Luxembourg we are talking about here. It will be the biggest member!!
    Now, when there isnt even common ground on such an issue as divorces what conflicts will await us with topics of importance, I wonder.

    I feel with them among us there will be no more progress. And there are speculations this is the very reason the USA wants them to become a member of the EU. To throw a stick between our legs.

    True, politically we have enough conflicts inside of Europe right now. You will agree that we dont need to add to them.
    Oh, just think of the wonderful possibilities for trouble. Think of the nations that Turkey borders on…

    Dont know about Blair, however Schröder has no religious agendas.
    Right. The Turks elected this and no other government. An islamistic government. Period.
    .
    .
    Says it all in my opinion.
     
  18. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    We have already had huge waves of Turkish immigrants, most of them invited as labour and they have never really been much of a problem. In the 60's thousands upon thousands of Turks and Greeks came to Sweden to work and they were a great asset for our society. There actually seems to be a difference between immigrants and refugees, immigrants truly want to be in the country they move to and make a real effort to put in their fair share. Refugees were forced to move and often, even if it is illogical feel resentment for the new country for it not being their home.

    There was a lot of talk about waves and waves of immigrants flooding the EU when we let many of the Eastern states in but we have yet to see any great flood. People in general prefer to stay at home and dont move unless forced to if they dont have a job and everything fixed in the new place.
     
  19. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    Well, it was meant to be absurd. It was an attempt at an argumentum at absurdum, hyperbel. But nonetheless, together with the Metternich-quote (itself a hyperbel), nicely sums up the vanity to define the European countries according to culture or geography. There would have to be in the first place an agreement about what European-culture is, before one can say one country doesn't belong to it.

    Further, geographical boundaries don't make too much sense either. Among Italians, the notion that africa starts south of venetia can be easily found, for example. Mediterranian-culture is so European, yet the biggest part of it is outside of European borders. It's not Europe, but ties and common history can't be denied. And in the case of Turkey, they turkisesd Europe by breing guns and sabers here, how can't they be European ?

    And the similarity between Spain and Portugal in the 70s and Turkey now are striking. Spain and Portugal. The most interesting fact is, that the Spaniards and Portugese went back to Portugal and Spain in the eighties, as those countries became EC-members. Reason for it, as EU members, suddenly factories were built there and the migration wave turned 180 degrees, with Spaniards and Portugese moving back. The same happened with Italians and Greeks. As far as I know, it happened with all new members. It seems to be contra-initutive, but...

     
  20. Takara

    Takara My goodness! I see turnips everywhere

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    I know in the UK we have a large Turkish contingent. After WW2 they were allowed to stay to help repair and rebuild the country. Once that was done, they never left.

    So far I havent really ever heard of a problem stemming from this, and where would we be without all the kebab houses? In a dire mess I tell you! that's where. :lol:
     
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