1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Taluntain, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. damedog Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Resourceful

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    748
    Likes Received:
    52
    Gender:
    Male
    Well hey, he won't stop his supporters from being deplatformed and censored, he won't do anything about immigration, but at least he will complain about SNL and do right by Israel.
     
  2. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    No fear? The founding population of Israel consists mostly of people who fled from Europe due to Germanys attempt to eradicate them during WW2. A good part of Israels attitude comes from the "Never again!" where they could no longer accept to live in a state ruled by others that would either burn them or deliver them to those who would burn them.
    For us who were born in peace in a EU that never had any wars since it’s foundation (well, except for those that joined later after the Yugoslave civil war) that is hard to understand. But e.g. my grandmother who experienced WW2 being born 1922, was still frightened every time a planes engine could be heard over the town, even 60 years after the war ended.

    And during the entire existance of Israel (I mean the state of Israel here, after the end of the Mandate as before Faisal and Weizmann were quite agreeable about co-existance) there always was the looming threat that each and every neighbour was hostile to their very existence, wishing to throw them all back into the mediterrenean sea, and outnumbering the jewish population more than tenfold making any kind of war of attrition a losing matter.

    They were in fear from the Scud missiles of Iraq that could have carried chemical weapons and nowadays the emerging nuclear program of Iran creates the fear that once Iran would gain the bomb that someone would be fanatical enough to use it.
    Two bombs on Japan were not enough to destroy the country, but Israel in comparison is a small country, a narrow strip along the coast and every even semi-modern nuclear bomb packs more punch than Fat Man or Tall Boy and would spread radiation across almost the entire country.

    I may sound harsh now, but the peace between Turkey and Greece after their war (the one right after WW1) was concluded by a massive exchange of population to prevent the situation that two states exist with large parts of population that would hate the guts of the other.

    After the foundation of Israel as a state and the war between Israel and it’s arabian neighbours, most arabian states (e.g. Algeria) expelled their jewish population in retaliation. At that time Israel took tenthousands of new arrivals in - and at that time they should in turn have expelled the entire non-jewish arabian population from the area that 1947 was defined in resolution 181 by the UN for the jewish state, but that the arabian population supported by their arabian neighbours rejected.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

    1947 could have seen the creation of two states in Palestine, united by an economic union as proposed by the UN. Nowadays many arabians and quite a lot of leftleaning populists even in Germany demand an "independant state for the arabians" that those same arabians completely rejected in 1947 and were willing to fight a war for to prevent two states to emerge.
     
  3. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    22,888
    Media:
    482
    Likes Received:
    450
    Gender:
    Male
    It's been clear to everyone for a long time now that any attack on Israel would mean essentially going to war with (at least) the US alongside Israel, and not even the most fanatical dictatorships are foolish enough to want to attempt that. So realistically, I really don't believe that Israel has anything to fear from anyone (random Palestinian terrorism excluded). As for the fact that their neighbouring countries are hostile, that's not really hard to understand given how Israel came to be and how the Palestinian population has been faring under Israeli rule.

    Assuming that this map is more or less correct, it speaks volumes:

    [​IMG]

    Personally, at this point, I don't really see how this could end any other way than it has for Native Americans in the US, because the map is telling pretty much the same story. And despite how it might seem, I'm really not interested in Palestine much or even less an advocate for their actions. But I perceive what Israel has been doing as deeply unjust and going against everything that they should be standing for given what's happened during WW2 and that bothers me immensely.

    Well, yes, I believe I have mentioned earlier that 70 years make a world of difference. Today it's clear that Palestinian defeat is effectively complete. Fanaticism aside, sporadic terrorist attacks make literally zero difference in the overall situation and only serve as a distraction. On a rational level, of course I feel that they should have accepted whatever they've been offered in the past because they would have been far better off than they are now. But I can also understand why they didn't and that it's really not a choice that they should have been forced to make in the first place.

    Still, I am well aware that many nations (including mine), have had to accept such loss of land historically as a consequence of, say, wartime defeat, referendums, or simply higher victorious powers deciding that a neighbouring country gets to take a chunk of our land "for services rendered". And while I'm sure that there have always been plenty of attempts at selling such confiscations as "God's will", history does tend to correctly identify them as nothing more than simple cases of "to the victor go the spoils".
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  4. Keneth Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


    ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    2,952
    Likes Received:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    All I know about this conflict is that IDF intentionally recruits hot women to sway public opinion and it works every time. :shake:

    [​IMG]
     
    The Great Snook likes this.
  5. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Perhaps that is the german in me speaking - but when WE did go to war with the US including UK and France and USSR *TWICE* in our history, then I have no doubt that in another dictatorship there are enough people who would just take the risk. Especially if they could leash out against Israel when they could have reasons to assume that the US is preparing for a war vs. Iran anyway.

    Israel came to be as a result of a resolution of the UN that called for two states in the mandate area. The israelis at that time created the state that the UN approved of - and their neighbours instead of welcoming a new neighbour and founding the 2nd state for Palestine, both the neighbouring arabian states and their neighbours within their own state turned hostile to the idea of two states. Crying now, after losing the war despite outnumbering and surrounding the israelis and intent to never have them have an independant state and worse in their rhetorics, and calling now for something that had been offered to them on a silver tablet, is like Germany crying for the lost provinces in Poland, Russia or France after WW2.

    Unlike the native americans the palestinians had the active support of several existing states with a real military around them, outnumbered the israelis instead of being tremendously outnumbered, and were -together with the arabian states - a real, vital threat to the very existance of the state of Israel. This is not some natives gathering for a handful of lucky victories in which a miniscule amount of the enemies military is defeated (e.g. Little Big Horn) but a real war that if you want to relate the native americans with the palestinians could have ended in the US today not existing and their europeandescended population driven into the ocean. The native americans were far more divided and splintered than the palestinians and arabians who found their common nationalism during WW1.

    Fool me once - your fault. Fool me twice - my fault. I would not expect any israeli government to take the risk to hand any palestinian government anything that could endanger the state of Israel, after those same palestinians did not only symphatize but actively fougtht the israli state in league with the neighbouring invaders of the arabian league. It would seem to me like Slovenia, Croatia or Bosnia living happily together in a state with a Serbia that never gave up it’s dreams of having the right to rule it all and cleanse any resistance.
     
  6. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    22,888
    Media:
    482
    Likes Received:
    450
    Gender:
    Male
    That didn't end well for Germany and while repeating historical mistakes is always a possibility, the German leaders have been doing a very good job so far at keeping the memory alive and not going down that route. If the US attacked, say, Iran first -- then sure, I wouldn't be surprised if other neighbouring countries joined the fray. But I don't see it happening the other way.

    Yea, funny thing about the UN... when someone wants to use it to prove their point, then it's a valid organization. But when the UN decides or declares something that they don't like, then it's a failed organization that nobody takes or should take seriously anyway. Case in point, the UN/international law declared dozens if not hundreds of Israeli actions and occupations illegal but... *crickets* In reality, anyone with a big enough army / enough nukes / powerful friends (e.g. the US) gets to do whatever they please and merrily ignore the UN resolutions even if they come by the hundreds.

    I wasn't comparing the situations literally but in terms of the end result, which is that the once prevailing native population has been forced into pockets of segregated, mostly worthless land where possible. But yes, you're right about the fact that Israel has been victorious against all odds.

    I'm not really sure about your Yugoslavia comparison. Those countries fought their way to independence in a more or less bloody series of conflicts and wars. The real difference is that they've been mostly successful, while Palestine has kept failing.
     
  7. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    367
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Palestinians would be the serbians in Bosnia with the arabians being the serbians in Serbia.
    Serbia fought to keep the others in the same state and keep Yugoslavia alive with Serbia as the dominant force, while Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia fought to be rid of that state and to create their own states - just as Israel wanted to create it’s own state out of the british "Mandate of Palestine" with the approval of the UN resolution, with the palestinians with the support of the arabian neighbours who did not want israel to create it’s own state, but wanted to keep them in one state where the israelis would have been a minority in a sea of arabians.

    And it is not that 1947 was the only time. Israel had to fight several times wars that would mean a loss of face and a few squaremiles for the arabian league if Israel would win - but the end of Israel if the arabians had won even once.
     
  8. AD&D_Fan Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


    ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    2
    If we're truly being honest here... the Jews had what is now Israel (and Jerusalem) over 3 thousand years ago. In 1000 BCE... King David, Solomon, and Saul (not sure what order) ruled the territory. If I remember my progressive New England prep-school education correctly (before such discussions became taboo)... they're the the earliest known organized civilization to have ever lived there. Absolutely pre-dates the Roman empire, and any form of Islamic rule... because, well... Islam didn't yet exist as a concept or religion. Even the earliest beginnings of the religion (pre-Mohammed) wouldn't even come to exist for another 400 years.

    The earliest settlers of Jerusalem (Jebus) were the Egyptians in a more nomadic structure... who (as an organized society) no longer exist in any form.

    Seems the Jews have absolute right to the land... and the American Indian reference wouldn't apply to the Palestinians.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  9. Yulaw9460 Gems: 9/31
    Latest gem: Iol


    Resourceful Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    307
    Media:
    20
    Likes Received:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    "Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital"

    So did Clinton, Bush and Obama. The speeches documenting their stance are readily available online. Only difference is that in this case, Trump put his money where his mouth is. He made what they started official.

    So there...
     
  10. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    22,888
    Media:
    482
    Likes Received:
    450
    Gender:
    Male
    That kind of claims based on the state of affairs hundreds or thousands of years ago inevitably result in war wherever they pop up. Most of the larger European countries today could lay claim to vast expanses of land outside their current borders, even entire sovereign countries, based on historical presence and/or possession of the land. The loss and conquest of territories in war is an inevitable fact, but I wouldn't throw any "absolute rights" in there as they tend to be pretty much exclusively one-sided opinions and/or nationalist propaganda.
     
  11. AD&D_Fan Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


    ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    2
    So, respectfully... what are we saying here?

    Seems this thread just got through determining that Palestinians had the right to the land because they were there first. Now that I've stated they were in fact the oppressors originally to the Jews who owned the land first, the argument of who was there first is no longer valid?

    Or are you saying that "the loss and conquest of territories in war is an inevitable fact" means it's totally cool then for the Israelis to just take back the land because they can?


    I know I'm throwing a lot of strawmen at you here... but it seems like you're doing the very thing you just stated here:

    "Yea, funny thing about the UN... when someone wants to use it to prove their point, then it's a valid organization. But when the UN decides or declares something that they don't like, then it's a failed organization that nobody takes or should take seriously anyway."

    I know... I'm tough... but it's all in good fun. We all love AD&D.

    Still wish there was a Gold Box Series forum on here... :)
     
  12. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    22,888
    Media:
    482
    Likes Received:
    450
    Gender:
    Male
    There are various Gold Box threads in The Playground forum actually, try searching for various titles if the threads are off the last page(s) already.

    As for on topic, I'd have to verify your claims since they're going back much further than my cursory knowledge of ME history goes. I am by no means an expert on ancient history of the area.

    More specifically:

    Actually more accurately would be that they were there last and for quite some time, not necessarily first. Because if you want to go by who was anywhere first you could always find someone else there the further back you go. What's the limit, 5000 years? 10k? 50k?

    I don't think that "who was there first" was the main argument, do you have a quote on that?
     
  13. AD&D_Fan Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


    ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    2
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jerusalem

    "the Israelite history of the city began in c. 1000 BCE, with King David's sack of Jerusalem, following which Jerusalem became the City of David and capital of the United Kingdom of Israel."


    Jews had Jerusalem for 1000 years, from 1050 BCE until, quite literally... the birth of Christ (recall the Jews stoned Jesus during the crucifiction)... which among other issues... resulted in the Roman authority of Jerusalem becoming a pagan state. It became Christian after 150, and remained that way until about 650 AD when it came under Muslim rule. It remained under the rule of Islam until 1095 AD which, during the Crusades, it was regained by the Christians. At some point in 1190 it was recaptured by an Islamic culture by then Prince An-Nasir Saladin, who recaptured it. In 1243, it was re-captured by Christians until it was re-captured by Muslims in the early 1300s. For the next 200 years, it was pretty evenly split until it the creation of the Ottoman empire. In the creation of the Ottoman empire, it was multi-religious and multi-cultural... Christian, Jewish, and Muslim. It remained this way until the fall of the Ottoman Empire. In the late 1800s, it was split up, and various other territories... further messed with by the Russians, British, etc. 1948... you know what happened. It's been Jewish ever since.


    So, if I'm doing my math fairly vaguely...

    Jews = 1150 years
    Christians = 750 years
    Islam = 600 years
    Pagan = 200 years
    Shared = 300 years

    So, sorry... no matter how you slice this pie... the Jews have most certainly been there the longest, and... the last.
     
  14. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    22,888
    Media:
    482
    Likes Received:
    450
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, yes, last now, that's the bone of contention. :shake: But you can't equate the history of the city of Jerusalem with the entire area of Palestine/Israel. The ping-pong exchange of ruling power(s) in the city was not consistently reflected throughout most, let alone all of the debated surrounding area.
     
  15. AD&D_Fan Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


    ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    2

    When it comes down to it... I can see no reason why the Palestinians deserve any claim or stake to the land as they say they do.

    They weren't the first, they weren't the last, and they spent the least amount of time of any culture in the area. But it's not my fight to fight...
     
  16. Yulaw9460 Gems: 9/31
    Latest gem: Iol


    Resourceful Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    307
    Media:
    20
    Likes Received:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, if we're doing math about who had the most influence where and for how long, there are probably entire Scandinavian and/or European countries that we Danes have a legit claim to...

    ...which is totally fine by me, BTW! :p
     
Sorcerer's Place is an independent project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of time and money on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!