Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital

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Well hey, he won't stop his supporters from being deplatformed and censored, he won't do anything about immigration, but at least he will complain about SNL and do right by Israel.

 

No fear? The founding population of Israel consists mostly of people who fled from Europe due to Germanys attempt to eradicate them during WW2. A good part of Israels attitude comes from the "Never again!" where they could no longer accept to live in a state ruled by others that would either burn them or deliver them to those who would burn them.
For us who were born in peace in a EU that never had any wars since it’s foundation (well, except for those that joined later after the Yugoslave civil war) that is hard to understand. But e.g. my grandmother who experienced WW2 being born 1922, was still frightened every time a planes engine could be heard over the town, even 60 years after the war ended.

And during the entire existance of Israel (I mean the state of Israel here, after the end of the Mandate as before Faisal and Weizmann were quite agreeable about co-existance) there always was the looming threat that each and every neighbour was hostile to their very existence, wishing to throw them all back into the mediterrenean sea, and outnumbering the jewish population more than tenfold making any kind of war of attrition a losing matter.

They were in fear from the Scud missiles of Iraq that could have carried chemical weapons and nowadays the emerging nuclear program of Iran creates the fear that once Iran would gain the bomb that someone would be fanatical enough to use it.
Two bombs on Japan were not enough to destroy the country, but Israel in comparison is a small country, a narrow strip along the coast and every even semi-modern nuclear bomb packs more punch than Fat Man or Tall Boy and would spread radiation across almost the entire country.

I may sound harsh now, but the peace between Turkey and Greece after their war (the one right after WW1) was concluded by a massive exchange of population to prevent the situation that two states exist with large parts of population that would hate the guts of the other.

After the foundation of Israel as a state and the war between Israel and it’s arabian neighbours, most arabian states (e.g. Algeria) expelled their jewish population in retaliation. At that time Israel took tenthousands of new arrivals in - and at that time they should in turn have expelled the entire non-jewish arabian population from the area that 1947 was defined in resolution 181 by the UN for the jewish state, but that the arabian population supported by their arabian neighbours rejected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

1947 could have seen the creation of two states in Palestine, united by an economic union as proposed by the UN. Nowadays many arabians and quite a lot of leftleaning populists even in Germany demand an "independant state for the arabians" that those same arabians completely rejected in 1947 and were willing to fight a war for to prevent two states to emerge.

 

All I know about this conflict is that IDF intentionally recruits hot women to sway public opinion and it works every time.

 

Perhaps that is the german in me speaking - but when WE did go to war with the US including UK and France and USSR *TWICE* in our history, then I have no doubt that in another dictatorship there are enough people who would just take the risk. Especially if they could leash out against Israel when they could have reasons to assume that the US is preparing for a war vs. Iran anyway.

Israel came to be as a result of a resolution of the UN that called for two states in the mandate area. The israelis at that time created the state that the UN approved of - and their neighbours instead of welcoming a new neighbour and founding the 2nd state for Palestine, both the neighbouring arabian states and their neighbours within their own state turned hostile to the idea of two states. Crying now, after losing the war despite outnumbering and surrounding the israelis and intent to never have them have an independant state and worse in their rhetorics, and calling now for something that had been offered to them on a silver tablet, is like Germany crying for the lost provinces in Poland, Russia or France after WW2.

Unlike the native americans the palestinians had the active support of several existing states with a real military around them, outnumbered the israelis instead of being tremendously outnumbered, and were -together with the arabian states - a real, vital threat to the very existance of the state of Israel. This is not some natives gathering for a handful of lucky victories in which a miniscule amount of the enemies military is defeated (e.g. Little Big Horn) but a real war that if you want to relate the native americans with the palestinians could have ended in the US today not existing and their europeandescended population driven into the ocean. The native americans were far more divided and splintered than the palestinians and arabians who found their common nationalism during WW1.

Fool me once - your fault. Fool me twice - my fault. I would not expect any israeli government to take the risk to hand any palestinian government anything that could endanger the state of Israel, after those same palestinians did not only symphatize but actively fougtht the israli state in league with the neighbouring invaders of the arabian league. It would seem to me like Slovenia, Croatia or Bosnia living happily together in a state with a Serbia that never gave up it’s dreams of having the right to rule it all and cleanse any resistance.

 

Palestinians would be the serbians in Bosnia with the arabians being the serbians in Serbia.
Serbia fought to keep the others in the same state and keep Yugoslavia alive with Serbia as the dominant force, while Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia fought to be rid of that state and to create their own states - just as Israel wanted to create it’s own state out of the british "Mandate of Palestine" with the approval of the UN resolution, with the palestinians with the support of the arabian neighbours who did not want israel to create it’s own state, but wanted to keep them in one state where the israelis would have been a minority in a sea of arabians.

And it is not that 1947 was the only time. Israel had to fight several times wars that would mean a loss of face and a few squaremiles for the arabian league if Israel would win - but the end of Israel if the arabians had won even once.

 

If we're truly being honest here... the Jews had what is now Israel (and Jerusalem) over 3 thousand years ago. In 1000 BCE... King David, Solomon, and Saul (not sure what order) ruled the territory. If I remember my progressive New England prep-school education correctly (before such discussions became taboo)... they're the the earliest known organized civilization to have ever lived there. Absolutely pre-dates the Roman empire, and any form of Islamic rule... because, well... Islam didn't yet exist as a concept or religion. Even the earliest beginnings of the religion (pre-Mohammed) wouldn't even come to exist for another 400 years.

The earliest settlers of Jerusalem (Jebus) were the Egyptians in a more nomadic structure... who (as an organized society) no longer exist in any form.

Seems the Jews have absolute right to the land... and the American Indian reference wouldn't apply to the Palestinians.

 

"Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital"

So did Clinton, Bush and Obama. The speeches documenting their stance are readily available online. Only difference is that in this case, Trump put his money where his mouth is. He made what they started official.

So there...

 

So, respectfully... what are we saying here?

Seems this thread just got through determining that Palestinians had the right to the land because they were there first. Now that I've stated they were in fact the oppressors originally to the Jews who owned the land first, the argument of who was there first is no longer valid?

Or are you saying that "the loss and conquest of territories in war is an inevitable fact" means it's totally cool then for the Israelis to just take back the land because they can?


I know I'm throwing a lot of strawmen at you here... but it seems like you're doing the very thing you just stated here:

"Yea, funny thing about the UN... when someone wants to use it to prove their point, then it's a valid organization. But when the UN decides or declares something that they don't like, then it's a failed organization that nobody takes or should take seriously anyway."

I know... I'm tough... but it's all in good fun. We all love AD&D.

Still wish there was a Gold Box Series forum on here...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jerusalem

"the Israelite history of the city began in c. 1000 BCE, with King David's sack of Jerusalem, following which Jerusalem became the City of David and capital of the United Kingdom of Israel."

Jews had Jerusalem for 1000 years, from 1050 BCE until, quite literally... the birth of Christ (recall the Jews stoned Jesus during the crucifiction)... which among other issues... resulted in the Roman authority of Jerusalem becoming a pagan state. It became Christian after 150, and remained that way until about 650 AD when it came under Muslim rule. It remained under the rule of Islam until 1095 AD which, during the Crusades, it was regained by the Christians. At some point in 1190 it was recaptured by an Islamic culture by then Prince An-Nasir Saladin, who recaptured it. In 1243, it was re-captured by Christians until it was re-captured by Muslims in the early 1300s. For the next 200 years, it was pretty evenly split until it the creation of the Ottoman empire. In the creation of the Ottoman empire, it was multi-religious and multi-cultural... Christian, Jewish, and Muslim. It remained this way until the fall of the Ottoman Empire. In the late 1800s, it was split up, and various other territories... further messed with by the Russians, British, etc. 1948... you know what happened. It's been Jewish ever since.


So, if I'm doing my math fairly vaguely...

Jews = 1150 years
Christians = 750 years
Islam = 600 years
Pagan = 200 years
Shared = 300 years

So, sorry... no matter how you slice this pie... the Jews have most certainly been there the longest, and... the last.

 

When it comes down to it... I can see no reason why the Palestinians deserve any claim or stake to the land as they say they do.

They weren't the first, they weren't the last, and they spent the least amount of time of any culture in the area. But it's not my fight to fight...

 

Well, if we're doing math about who had the most influence where and for how long, there are probably entire Scandinavian and/or European countries that we Danes have a legit claim to...

...which is totally fine by me, BTW!