Top Officers in Abu Ghraib Case Cleared

Remove all ads!

Fair enough I guess, but the atmosphere in the world has changed from previous wars too. It's extremely difficult to justify a war if you bomb the infrasturcture of that country to oblivion.

Anyway I think the Abu Gharib case would be perhaps best handeled if the war and the abuses would be treated as separate issues. Using the Abu Gharib as a reason to condemn the war or the Bush adminstration is absurd. Even if this would be widely spread I can't imagine what anyone in Washington would gain from something like this. It's just plain bad publicity.

 

Morgoroth,

I agree completely with your post. However even in this thread there are attacks on:

rock-bottom reputation of the US Bush is responsible for

A serious investigation of them ain't gonna happen on a GOP controlled Senate because it will bring bad press for Bush. What about the role of Douglas Feist and Stephen Cambone? Wolfowitz? Rumsfeld?

 

Yeah I've noticed those and I just don't agree with most of them. I do however agree that the military in the US has a way of trying to hide these issues from the public that I don't much like. I do not think the Bush adminstration is much responsible and it's something that exists just about everywhere. The Russian army is not eager to make reports about their crimes in Chechenya for example and rather deal it by themselves.

 

It's the military, not a salad bar network. They know what's going on down there.

I can't believe in 99% holding themselves to such high standards. For each abuser, you need a crowd of blind-eye lookers and a negligent commander.

Mitigating factors for what? Rape? Calling rape "having sex with a detainee"? Ignoring complaints?

Sure you aren't saying it's acceptable on the invidual level, but it sounds like you're saying it's inevitable on the global level. Something needs mending in the mindsets of the people who are allowed to carry guns if they have such fantasies and carry them out. I blame the recruitment and assignment procedures plus the blind eye policy.

What needs to be pointed out, however, is that the army sensu sctricto looks relatively clear compared to private contractors and the intelligence.

 

[snip]

The war is easy to justify, Saddam didn't live up to his part of the ceasefire agreement, and his country has had to pay a price. Sad, but an undeniable fact.

As far as anything justifying anything "irregular", I have yet to justify the abuse. I will say it again, and maybe it will even get read this time, the abuse that was done to those in AG was wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . Those who committed these crimes, including any who initiated such actions, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Of course going on a witch-hunt with the only intent of taking the biggest fish possible, regardless of guilt or culpability is wrong as well.

[snip]

[ Warning pending ] - Beren

[ May 11, 2005, 02:23: Message edited by: Beren ]

 

Morgoroth:

In WAR, there are lots of occurrences where the "other side" uses devious tactics to kill their enemies (i.e. Vietnam children giving American soldiers candy laced with bamboo shards that go down like glass and will cut you to ribbons from the inside out..or run up to them strapped with explosives)...so why is it only "understandable" for the Finns??? Or anybody other than the AMERICAN military?? I hear this so often -- shootings or war incidents such as this are ok for anyone OTHER than the American military.

 

You're putting words into my mouth. If you are a soldier and feel that you're in danger then of course you are free to shoot to ensure your security. The Americans have shot several terrorist suspects in Iraq who have later been deemed harmless, and you don't and won't see me complain about that. When you abuse/rape/torture someone in a prison you can hardly be doing that for your own personal security or for the security of your squad. Mistakes happen in war, but deeds like this are no mistakes, they simply can't be mistakes. I'm sure you and I agree on that.

Also there is a reason why I mentioned only the winter war and not the continuation war. During the continuation war the treatment of Russian prisoners was much worse and some were even handed over to the Germans and it doesen't take genious to figure out what happened to those. So no I'm not ignorant to the crimes of Finnish officers, soldiers and politicians.

It's really funny how this argumentation goes. Tal claiming that Darkwolf refuses to acknowledge warcrimes of the American soldiers and then you claiming that I only blame US troops for their crimes. Well I don't think Darkwolf refuses to acknowledge the crimes, he just does not want to swallow the theory of a grand conspiracy that leads all this back to the Bush regime which I too have a hard time accepting. Some officers even the general in charge of Abu Gharib might have been aware of what was happening and as was said the general was busted down to a colonel. The military allways has had its own methods of dealing with such issues and sometimes these methods might be considered injust which is why I would like an neutral investigation to the issue free from military control.

The reason I complain about the actions of US troops and how they are prosecuted is because I hold the US army in much higher regard than Russia or China who commit even worse crimes. I do however expect those guilty of these actions to be punished and the matter to be investigated properly. From a great democratic nation such as the US I expect justice.

EDIT: Added a few points and fixed a few sentences. I'm starting to repeat myself but it seems to be the theme of this thread really.

[ May 11, 2005, 03:39: Message edited by: Morgoroth ]

 

By my comment of "understanding", I was by no means saying that this prison attrocity was explainable or "ok". I'm merely pointing out that war is filled with all kinds of attrocities -- you wouldn't believe the number of years we Americans had to listen to the malignment of American troops in Vietnam as "baby killers" -- not only from Europeans, but some Americans as well. It went on for quite some time -- at least until the full story finally came out.

While I think what happened in Iraq was heinous -- for that matter, so is war. Torture is nothing new in our history -- whether beheadings or pictures of sexually sadistic acts -- the difference is that it is now viewable, for us all to see. I also don't believe that it was a grand mastermind plot at work -- scripted by our President. As much as I dislike his policies, I simply don't think he would be that stupid. Blaming the entire American politic for this seems a bit of a stretch to me -- maybe like grasping for straws to make sense out of something highly distasteful and embarrassing for humanity as a whole. The notion of "it was THEM...could NEVER be us" isn't a new one and is much easier to live with.

 

I think the main problem is that most
Americans take any anti-Iraq statements as a personal attack, which is simply not true. I see Americans every day, and I don't think to myself 'Rapist, thug etc', however, I do get angry at the fact that people have been turning a 'blind eye' to abuse/torture or whatever you want to call it. Thousands of photos were destroyed, and these photos were trophies of Iraqi women, children and even males being 'defiled'. Donald Rumsfeld even admitted that he was talking about children being raped, so why deny that it even happened?

As Chev says, Rape was downgraded to simply 'A marine having sex with an Iraqi woman'.

Isn't that the same as people telling modern day Germany to take responsibiliby for WW2? The funny thing is that most Germans were not even alive then...

[ May 11, 2005, 10:44: Message edited by: Cesard the Fir Bolg ]

 

It really is, too. The way in which it was sold to the American public and the world, not so much, but the war itself? Yep.

It ain't too hard to justify knocking off dictators, even if it's only done selectively--though I do wish it wasn't only done selectively. Ah well.

Did any of the people invovled in this thread do that? I'm asking because my memory's horrible; maybe someone did.

If not, well...what's the point (and yes, blaming modern day Germany for WWII is more than slightly moronic)?

 

AMaster - Well not in this thread, but it has been hinted at in others. Also I seen a news story where Tony Blair said Germans should not create a 'victim-culture', and to take responsibility for what happened during WW2.

I do not disagree with Sadam being 'dethroned'. I just disagree with all the lies and unnecessary civillian deaths, not to mention the torture/abuse...

 

Hm. From what I've seen most Germans do indeed take historic responsibility for WWII (although naturally they have little emotional connection to something that took place 60 and more years ago), and Germany are one of the few nations connected to it that have made something like an apology for what they have done.
And as for the torture and abuse trials, isn't it rather ironic that Alberto Gonzales, the man who argued that the Geneva convention is, you know, obsolete, is now among the most powerful men in the US justice system and, in a way, presides over the torture case?

 

Which also makes it easier to get people caught doing it and also should make prosecution much easier. Torture, abuse, rapes are nothing new but I expect improvement. I just don't like to see the tragedies of history repeat themselves.

 

You guys crack me up. There has been so many reasons for the justification of this war that many of us have already lost count. Let's see, what day is this...oh, yes, it's the "we are spreading democracy" as the REAL reason for the war and we're using that one today. If it gets too confusing, just circle ALL OF THE ABOVE.

The ultimate responsibilty of what happens in this war, rests with the only person who can give the order to start the war. That would be King George II. If you have any questions, please consult the Constitution. If "war is war," well then, politics are politics. And if "you break it, you own it." This is called taking responsibility for one's actions. Or better known as "the buck stops here."

BTW, if you happen to see any "mushroom clouds" over Dick Cheney's head, it's probably something he's been smoking.

 

This was an absolute travesty. Although I still believe the acts in Abu Ghraib were the responsibility of a few deluded individuals (who need to be punished), the lack of leadership and direction for those individuals was unconcionable. Only one general has been punished (and even that was just an early retirement) and no officers have been held accountable for the terrible actions of soldiers in their units. The officers 'should have known' the actions of their soldiers and are therefore accountable under military law.

The 'the war is easy to justify' comment Chandos has quoted... I have to agree with Chandos there. I never bought the whole violation of UN stuff and ceasefire BS -- but I did feel that SH was an evil despot that needed to be dethroned. The world is a better place without men like him.

 

Ah, yes! Let's circle ALL OF THE ABOVE. Or, better known as the CYA approach...