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Time for a new age?

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by joacqin, Jan 20, 2009.

  1. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    So, Bush II is no longer the most powerful man on earth. From my perspective a dangerous man with dangerous friends is out of power. An admninistration that has managed to do great harm both to his country and the world. Bush managed to turn world opinion against the US in a way it has not been since the Vietnman war and I am not sure it was this bad even then. That said, do not think my fellow Americans that we will all love you now that the man in top is changed. The US under Clinton may have been better liked and more respected than under Bush but it was by no means universally loved. What I think we can look forward to is more the normal state of peaceful disagreement with what many (especially Europeans) view as the weirdos across the ocean instead of the last eight years of outrage and fear.

    I do not think that Obama will be very speciall, I think he will be a "business as usual" president. Bush and his men were far far to the right, flirting with the dark forces that has plunged our world into war for as long as we have had written history. Obama might be more enlightened but he is still a product of the USA with a view of the world that greatly differs from mine and many like me.

    So do not expect our debates here in the alley to end, I do not think the general line of US vs the rest will be erased. They might be mellowed but the fundamental differences between how many in Europe view the world and how many in the US view it remains. I look forward to many interesting debates but hopefully not about as dire subjects as the last eight years.
     
  2. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Don't worry, jaoquin...we'll bomb and oppress your country eventually. :)
     
  3. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


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    DR, sometimes I wonder about you.

    Joaqin, perhaps you could elaborate on some of these huge differences you perceive between the Europeans and the American "weirdos". I have my own thoughts about where such differences lie but I would like to hear yours (and those of other Europeans and also those from other countries -- I'm talking to you, Nataraja!)
     
  4. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Joacqin, I find it interesting that despite the very obvious disagreements between USA members of this board there is still a tendency from many non-USA members to see us as a homogeneous group. We are about as homogeneous as vinegar and oil/ Shake us up and pour us out quickly and you might get a temporarily homogeneous mixture but read carefully, the defining word is temporary/

    We have entered a New Age, with the Internet playing an important role in communications, a young president (4th youngest) and a colored (multiracial but definitely dark skinned) president I look forward with great interest to the next 4 to 8 years.

    Obama faces the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. There are few people alive who can actually remember what that was like. The rest of us go by what our parents and grandparents have said and what the 'experts' say.

    Obama also faces the expectations of a lot of people. What can he do for Blacks without offending whites, reds, yellows, browns and everything in-between. Can he keep us safe without impinging on our rights.

    What responsibilities do we have to other countries? Many countries want our help financially and militarily but at the same time they don't want us telling them what to do. This is a bit unrealistic and unfair. We have our own problems and sending precious money and lives to aid others means sacrifice on our part. In a world were people from Hong Kong to Madison, Wisconsin can communicate in a matter of seconds it is impossible to live in isolation.

    Sweden may not need or want our help but there are plenty of other spots that do. Whether it is a natural disaster or epidemic disease or civil war or invasion or just troubled economics people need help.

    I haven't noticed any mention of the United Nations and hope that Obama's administration will address this and get a little unity going there.

    Please, I ask you don't stereotype us. We are individuals but we all want the same things that everyone else wants, peace, a home, food, clothing and a bit of fun.

    Don't fret, joacqin, we will still have plenty of debates here, some friendly and some not so friendly.

    edit: As Lkd said just what are these great differences between the us USA weirdos and you non-USA weirdos?

    side note: I have been called a lot of things in my lifetime but don't ever remember being called a weirdo to my avatar/face before.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2009
    Ziad likes this.
  5. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    We will "liberate" them from their socialist oppressors. :)
     
    Nakia likes this.
  6. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I always thought the expression was "nuke 'em 'til they glow and shoot 'em in the dark."
     
  7. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    Of course Americans are not a homogenous groups but even the ones I find share many of views are still strange. It is hard to put words to it but there is a fundamental difference between the US way and the way I am used to. Best way to put it is that there is some kind of idealism and even naivité that in Bush's case took some dangerous expressions.

    The main thing is though, that any US president will look for US interests firsts. It is in his job description and that might not always put him in the role of the good guy (even if it tends to do so in the US) and that the US is a big powerful nation that is willing to do what it takes to stay that way while at the same time trying to project an image as doing whatever they do out of the goodness of their heart and to help people. I do not think the fundamental principle of US politics will change, it might tread more softly and with more thought but I the goals will not be much different from Bush or any other American president. My main point of this entire thread was that I do not think Obama will change that much, the US will still be the big brother you suck up to while at the same time being embarrassed and even wary.

    Oh and you are all weird you yanks, even the sensible ones of you are mad as hats. :p However, as they say, there is a thin line between madness and genius but I prefer the more mellow middle ground.
     
  8. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Well, given your wording, that means you prefer a somewhat-intelligent oddball. :p
     
  9. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    :alien::borg::tobattle: Hokay, joacqin, now I am annoyed. I am NOT a yank. Call me a weirdo if you wish but do NOT call me a yank. I'll forgive you this time. :) That taken care of back on topic.

    Of course it is the President's job to put the his country first. That is true of any President, Prime Minister, King, Queen, Leader of any country.

    It may come as a surprise to you but we do like to do things out of the goodness of our hearts. Don't know how many times folks in this country have fallen for a sob story and got taken. Even New Yorkers have had this happen to them. We are naive and suckers for a hard luck story.

    Did you ever read the story "The Mouse Who Roared"? The whole premise was based on the above fact.

    Just remember one little fact: Right now Big Brother is broke and in serious trouble. 30,000 people are losing their jobs because Circuit City is closing its stores and that doesn't count the people who have already lost jobs because of cut backs and people entering the job market. Don't expect us to get excited about problems in other countries. If the President and Congress don't take care of us first we will be looking for a new president and representatives.

    I still don't understand what or how you want us to change. Do you want us to stop sending soldiers to troubled spots? Places were people are suffering because of internal or external problems. You want us to stop sending help to places that have been hit by a catastrophic natural disasters? We do help because we care. Sure our government does things because it believes that we will benefit directly or indirectly and we, the People, know this and take the hype with a grain of salt.

    How are we crazy? Concrete examples, please.

    If a country or people choose to suck up to Big Brother that is their choice. If they are embarassed and wary that is their problem. If I go to some one for help I play by their rules or I don't play.
     
  10. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    Joacqin, I think most of the differences you see are called 'cultural differences'. You're used to dealing with people with a similar set of experiences and upbrining to you, and we are used to the same for us. There's an ocean of difference between us, so those are all different.

    Nakia, sorry, but I consider NJ part of Yankdom. Being raised in New Hampshire, I definitively call myself a Yank, much to my wife's (a southern belle) chagrin.

    I don't see a new age coming, just a new turn round the track. Good luck to Obama and all, but I don't expect much.
     
  11. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Nog, I was not born in New Jersey, I did not even grow up in New Jersey. I retired here because I could afford the house. Even if I was living in my beloved city of New York I would cringe at being called a yank. Even the full word Yankee would be preferable although still IMO not accurate. It is one of those cultural differences you mentioned. I was born south of the Mason Di8xon line and lived with a grandmother who was raised to think herself southern and the only curse word permitted a lady was damnyank, one word. I have been brained washed. :)

    This is a big country with lots of different cultures in it. I don't consider my Italian relatives to be yanks either. I think the term Yankee goes back to Vermont. The Brits coined it as a derisive term and it was adopted as a proud nick name. Unfortunately the Civil war caused it to be transferred to the northern part of the country above the Mason Dixon line. Here is a link to the Wiki bit on it.
    Mason-Dixon_Line

    As I stated previously this is not a homogeneous country. From the various cultures of the Native Americans and Eskimos to our most recent immigrants we differ a great deal. I think this causes problems for people from other countries who are accustom to a more homogeneous cultural.

    If you stop to think about it it is amazing that we don't have more problems and that we manage to accept and tolerate each other as well as we do. This I think also causes problems for other countries because we are proud of our differences. We are proud of our Constitution and our freedoms. Although at the moment I'm a bit unsure as to how much freedom we have left.

    :hmm: Resists temptation to go a flag waving spree.

    edit:" By the way, I have lived in the following states: Kentucky, Ohio, Florida, Arizona, Caulifornia, Alaska, New York and New Jersey. Visited or travel through most of the others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
  12. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Well, you elected Bush to a second term. :p

    (Okay, okay, I know - enough with the Bush bashing. Time to move on. Yadda yadda yadda. :p )
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
  13. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    :lol: Splunge, don't blame me I didn't vote for him. And he only won bya a fluke. Only half the country is crazy.
     
  14. khazadman Gems: 6/31
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    A prime example of a crazy American would be a Detroit Lions fan Nakia.
     
  15. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Well, of course he would. It seems just plain silly that he wouldn't. Whose interests should he look at first? Now I'm not sure if we are the ones who are "mad as hats." We may be yanks, but you guys had the vikings. What a pain in the butt those guys were.
     
  16. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Hey wait, maybe joacqin is right. Look at our history who settled what is now the USA?
    First an Italian got the bright idea that he could sail around the world to find the Spice Islands. He managed to talk a Spanish queen into giving him 3 small leaky ships to sail across a large uncharted expanse of water. Ran into a bunch of islands and not knowing how large the world really is at first thought he had found the Spice Islands. Nope, no spices but gold! Span went crazy chasing golden dreams.

    Then the French and English got into the act. Oh and the Dutch also. The Dutch got New Amsterdam, the English tried a couple of times before they got a colony going in Virginia. For some strange reason the French got Canada. Then people with religious ideas that didn't fit where they lived heard about all that land with just a few aboriginals wandering around in it and said whoopee, lets go. They jumped in small leaky ships, got sea sick and miserable but who cared they where off to worship god as they pleased.

    Then there were the 3rd, 45h, etc sons of noblemen who had no hope of getting land at home so they jumped on the band wagon, got land grants and brought their kith and kin to the Americas. I know this for a fact because my maternal grandfather's ancestor was one of those. Then the poor managed to get into the act and the exodus was on.

    To complete the picture the powers that be realized that the New World would make a great dumping ground for troublemakers and excess women. So they sent them here.

    Now all these people had the crazy idea that they could make a home for themselves with freedom to worship how they pleased. build farms and business so they and their descendants could have a decent life.

    In the process the natives got pushed around or killed off by strange diseases such as measles and chicken pox. Those big plantations in the south needed cheap labor so Africans got volunteered for that job.

    We have a perfect right to be crazy since this nation was founded on an insane idea. Canadians have a right to be a wee bit crazy too but not as much as us because they stuck with the Mother country.

    Sorry about that, Splunge, but obviously I am nuttier than you as well as older. :p

    If our new pres doesn't put us first he'll hear from me because I'm tired of hearing about how we should help the rest of the world but on their terms. Hey, if I borrow money from Splunge you can bet your booties that he'll have an iron clad contract set up on his terms not mine.
     
  17. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    [​IMG] Just look at how the U.S. were founded on crazy and radical ideas such as "All men are created equal" and "Of more worth is one honest man to society, and in the sight of God, than all the crowned ruffians that ever lived". Might sound natural to you guys today but in the age of King George the 3rd these ideas were pretty extremist. Not to mention getting rid of one King without appointing another!

    Sure you're a bunch of crazy rebels! :)
     
  18. Iku-Turso Gems: 26/31
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    Actually "All men are created equal" is pretty damn crazy. Completely bonkers and a mother load of hogwash. And there is not a single honest man in this world who'd be worth his weight in gold. If you can't learn to be dishonest when the time needs you to be, if you can't be a ruffian when your position requires ou to be, then you're worthless. Honest men are an extinct breed, an ideal, a lie to make other people and the masses complacent.

    I recognize the fact that there are who knows how many people who are born with more rights than me. There's a lot of people who are born with less rights than me. Too bad. It's just a question of living with it and making the best of what you got.

    Heh, and this comes from a guy in a country that was allied with the nazis for a while (now this was a real conversation killer to blurt out when I was in Australia...) :rolleyes:

    There's a lot of it in the pile of history to get you knee-deep if you go diggin for dirt. No point going in there, unless you're looking for a convenient scapegoat and that's not constructive. It'll wash away the blame, but that's all it does.

    Every single day is the time for a new age. Also, big changes do not come overnight. It takes every single day from here to eternity.
     
  19. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    khazadman, you're saying they're crazier than some of the soccer (sorry, football) fans we see in Spain and South America?

    Montresor, we stole those ideas from a philosopher (think he was French, maybe English), so we only did the crazy bit of founding a nation crazy ideas. Someone else came up with them. :)
     
  20. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    We are referring to a "new age," not the one of the last 8 years.

    The influence generally cited on Jefferson and the DoI was an Englisman, John Locke. But that is really a subject of debate among historians.
     
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