The New Catastrophe in Gaza

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What really pisses me off is how Israel justifies its actions by saying all of his targets are "terrorist". Like what they do is any different. And this goes for the people here as well: aren't you afraid of becoming what you hate? What makes you think you're any different?
Also, stop generalizing, please. I think this is your main problem. You generalize too much. This is why, I believe, you support the idea of destroying a whole building cause 4 (10?) terrorists are inside, and the other 50 humans are "collateral damage".
PS: shoshi, this should go into a pm, but since I'm here... I'll tell you: you don't understand what I'm saying. So I guess any discussion between us is doomed from the start. Make sure you read everything 3 or 4 times, before writing a response.

 

@shoshino:

What about people who live there, people who have nowhere to go?

I remind you that you are talking about human beings!!!!!

"Free game" indeed... I doubt you even realize the basic inhumanity of such a statement?

I wonder what you would say if you were stuck in such a war zone yourself: another figure, collateral damage, "free game"...

What is even more serious is that you actually imply that civilians are responsible for being killed!

[ July 14, 2006, 13:32: Message edited by: Caradhras ]

 

We all know that all Arabs and Palestinians are terrorists and thus free game no matter age, gender or whatever. And anyways, tehy are only Arabs so who gives a crap if a couple of hundred "innocent" ones die they are all animals anyways.

That seems to be the general consensus among all too many people.

Also, just because you think what Israel does is atrocious doesnt automatically make you think it is fine and dandy to go blow up buses and cafés. What the people usually labelled as "Anti-Israel" tend to say is that both sides are in the wrong and that Israel in no way has any moral highground or is any better than people blowing themselves up but neither are suicide bombers any better than artillery strikes into residential areas. It is all the same the difference is that as has been stated that Israel has a centralized democratic government and thus the ability to use restraint and not let the reptile brain do the thinking while the Palestinans dont.

 

It's the act of an individual BRAINWASHED by a government, not such a big difference. And there have been numerous of those individuals in the past, and there will be in the future, all supported by their government.

 

To say that Hezbollah acts independently of Lebanon (with financing from Syria and Iran) or that Hamas (which is the government of Gaza) is any sort of a difference from the Nation of Israel is ridiculous.

These are not random individuals waging a war for the eradication of Israel.

Heck, even here in the land of the second amendment and the right to bear arms we can't get rockets. Where do you think they are all coming from, Walmart?

 

No. It's the act of an individual who has never seen any opportunities in his life and has seen his friends and family suffer at the hands of Israeli policy. We've known that it is desperation, not brainwashing, that creates terrorism since terrorism first existed. Content people don't revolt.

 

That is nonsense. If they haven't seen any opportunity in life it is the mullah's fault not Israel's.

 

@Snook: Get off it. Israelis are the one's creating checkpoints in Palestinian territory, building walls and killing innocent Palestinian civillians at the rate of ten to one. Whether the actions of Israel can be justified or not, you cannot deny that the Palestinians are probably going to blame Israel instead of their mullahs. Their mullahs haven't killed their children. Their mullahs don't make them go through a checkpoint where they are harassed by Israeli soldiers every day just to buy bread. The suffering of the Palestinians happens at the hands of Israelis, not their mullahs, whether or not it is their mullahs' fault. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how a Palestinian living in that situation is going to see things.

We're talking about perspective. Israel will not see a decline in terrorism until they get Palestine to see them as an ally instead of an enemy. That will only happen, however, if they start acting like an ally instead of an enemy.

 

That is the problem dmc, no matter how much the Palestinian leadership screws up everything they are not the greatest reason for average Palestinian having a hard time. Any corruption and mismanagement from the Palestinian side is easily buried under the avalanche of Israeli opression and sabotage. That means when some Palestinian actually would question their own leadership for all their screw ups he is just told: "well yeah, but the biggest reason why everything sucks is Israel. What we do is just a drop in the sea compared to that." A reply which is technically correct.

 

The "don't go to Israel" argument would make sense, yet it's not that simple: for instance Israel maintains 50+ checkpoints within the West Bank only.

It can seem paradoxical but Palestinians represent a workforce and they have to leave the Territories to get access to work in Israel.

Find out more about the Barrier: http://www.humanitarianinfo.org/opt/docs/UN/OCHA/OCHABarRprt05_Full.pdf

And for a sign of hope.

 

the basic premise of the "palestinian's" is flawed


"There is no such thing as a “Palestinian people.” That is a concept that, by the drumbeat of incessant propaganda, has been foisted on the world. The so-called Palestinians are the same Arabs that live in Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. Never at any time in history did the “Palestinians” have a homeland, nor did they ever demand one.

In 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted to set up both a Jewish and an Arab state within the borders of the territories. The Arabs were allotted three contiguous areas and the enclave of the city of Jaffa. The Jews were allotted three discontiguous areas. Jerusalem was to be an international city. In order to get their homeland, the Jews reluctantly accepted the unfavorable deal. The Arabs rejected it out of hand and instead invaded the nascent Jewish state with the armies of six nations. The ragtag Jewish forces decisively defeated the aggressors and stayed in control of most of the area. Egypt retained control of the Gaza Strip, and Jordan occupied Judea/Samaria (the “West Bank”). Had the Arabs accepted the United Nations partition plan, they would have had their “Palestinian homeland” for almost 60 years. They spurned the opportunity when it was available to them.

For nineteen years, until the Six-Day War, the territories involved were under the control of Jordan and Egypt. Never during those years was there ever a demand for a “Palestinian homeland.” Only after the Six-Day War in 1967, when the territories reverted to Israeli control, did the insistent clamor for a “Palestinian homeland” arise.

Although the Israelis would probably be glad to get rid of those bothersome and rebellious people, it is regrettably not that simple. The declared goal of the Arabs, a goal never rescinded, is the destruction of Israel. Were they granted an independent state, it would geographically and strategically dominate all of Israel. Within a very short time, this “Palestinian homeland” would be bristling with the most advanced weaponry, in all likelihood including weapons of mass destruction. Arab armies would be invited to participate in what they would hope to be the final onslaught against Israel and against the hated Jews.


israel has been attacked since the day of their inception. i am personally suprised they have shown this much restraint

 

Yes, but Israel has been as agressive as it's neighbours. When occupied by GB Palestine were harassed by Jewish gangs/terrorists. What you see now is not even retribution, it's massive destruction of Lebanon and Gaza. Blaming the Lebanese government is blaming the wrong, they do not control Hezbollah.
That being said I agrees when you say the Arabs wants to utterly destroy Israel.

 

They may not control Hezbollah, but they sure as hell don't stretch a muscle to prevent them from firing missiles into Israel, that makes them just as guilty as Hezbollah itself. Hezbollah has deployed thousands of Katyusha rockets along the southern border of Lebanon, all of which are aimed at Israel, and the Lebanese government doesn't lift a finger. isn't that at least very doubtful behaviour ?

 

Hezbollah has a political wing in the Lebanese parliament (23 seats out of 128, 2 ministers) and it has good popular support. Both make sure it's hard for the other parties to act against them - especially since many people support a firmer stance on Israel. After all, Lebanese territory has been hit much harder than Israeli one. Part of the "head for an eye and jaw for a tooth" policy.

Let's be honest: there aren't many Arabs who are Israel sympathizers, and they have quite little to sympathize with. Just as a reminder - in the week before the first kidnapping, Israeli shelling killed a family of 7 (made the news for a while) and blew up a car carrying Palestinian militants. In the eyes of Hamas, both were serious provocations for something bigger, and it followed. IMO, Hezbollah is just joining in the fray. You see, if Israel had a policy of trying to hunt down only the militants, that might be effective, because it would be their lives who are the chief target, not some power plants or cafes or whatever. But when it goes for massive air strikes on targets that are often civilian and remotely linked to Hamas, Hezbollah or any other group, it just feeds the hatred. If it kills 2 men, 20 are left impoverished and have family members killed or missing, and they blame Israel for dropping the bombs, not Hezbollah (not least for the hospitals, infrastructure projects and schools its civilian arm operates). In a country where vendettas and blood feuds are not uncommon, how many of these 20 will sign up for a retaliation?

I wonder if that isn't the aim of the Israeli policy - keep enough enemies for a few attacks here and there to keep up the heat and provide public support. After all, if there was peace, all the hawks would be out of job - and funding.

[ July 15, 2006, 16:48: Message edited by: The Shaman ]

 

No. Since Lebanon is like to countries. The one to the south controlled by Hezbollah (you could argue with Syria/Iran, but now we say Hezbollah). The strength of Hezbollah far outnumbers that of the Lebanese government, they are not corrupted, and well liked among most lebanesians because they haven't shot at civil lebanesians - like all other groups in Lebanon have.
Still this killing rate Israelis vs Lebanesian is around 1:8.
The only way Israel is getting away with this is because of the 11th september after wich most vestern countries now does exactly like Israel - in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Edit: Hezbollah has to ministers in the government AFAIK

 

They have "endorsed" a third, so I guess he is quite close to their policies as well. After all, on some issues such as Israel hard-liners from other parties may well sympathize with Hezbollah attacks. In fact, another Shiite party called Amal (iirc) regularly votes with them.

[ July 15, 2006, 17:29: Message edited by: The Shaman ]

 

Wrong. There are checkpoints between many Palestinian cities, too.


You savaged every isolated point of my post yet ignored my larger message.....that, to the perspective of Palestinians, their suffering occurs at the hands of Israel. This is the root of the problem, and this is what Israel needs to adress. I don't care who "started it". I don't care who's at fault.

Israel needs to get Palestinians to see them differently if they want terrorism to stop. That means they'll need to behave differently. Palestine lacks the infrastructure to actually change anything themselves, so the change has to come from Israel. Who started it or who is at fault is completely irrelevant. But changing the way that Israelis and Palestinians see each other is still the only solution. No ammount of violence, fences or shellings will change anything....unless more deaths and an escalating conflict constitutes a change.

 

Perhaps. On the other hand, they've been trying violent military responses to individual acts of terrorism for 30+ years. The results haven't exactly been optimal.