The New Catastrophe in Gaza

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Every single Palestinian is complicit in each and every suicide bombing, rocket attack, kidnapping, shooting, etc. Some have given their active consent and the rest have given their passive consent. If the "normal people" felt it was wrong they would stop it.

 

Then you're responsible for Iraq, Snook.

 

I can't argue that point.

 

I, and what ammounted to a huge minority at the time, felt our war on Iraq was baseless and was being prosecuted on false pretenses. Yet I was powerless to stop it. The actions of my government are not representative of all (and not even necessarily most) Americans.

While I condemn Israel's policies and actions, I'm certainly not foolish enough to blame all Israelis for them. Nor am I foolish enough to blame Palestine for the actions of their government or the actions of individual Palestinian terror cells. This idea that all Palestinians are to blame for the actions of individual palestinians acting independently outside of their direct control borders on racism.

Please, please, with sugar on top stop talking about genocide as if it is, or has ever been, a legitimate solution to any problem our world has ever had. If done, it would legitimize all the comparisons that have been made between Israel and Nazi Germany (comparisons with which I currently disagree). The Israeli president that ordered it and many of his high ranking officials and military members would be arrested for war crimes because not only is genocide clearly one of the most immoral things a nation can do, but it's also illegal. It is simply not a solution to anything. The genocide "solution" would more accurately be described as a "problem".

 

I am just laying the blame where it belongs. Israel ceded land and for lack of a better word "freedom" to the Palestinians. Since then the Israeli's have been subjected to constant attacks. The people elected a government whose sole purpose for many years was to destroy Israel. All of the rockets, guns, and bombs are coming from somewhere and the people have parades honoring their exploded heroes. As I stated before, if the Palestinians would leave Israel alone, the Israeli's would love nothing better than to do the same.

Let's pretend that every morning when you leave for work your neighbor punches you in the stomach and you live in a world without police. Now being a peace loving kind of guy, I'm sure you would do everything you could to avoid a confrontation. You would probably leave at a different time or maybe even move to a new house. Now pretend that this neighbor follows you to your new house or time or whatever and continues to punch you. At what point do you fight back and or kill him.

This is the problem the Israeli's are facing. Currently they are throwing ten punches for every punch their neighbor throws, but the neighbor keeps on coming back and throwing more punches. I think it is remarkable restraint that they haven't killed this neighbor to make the problem go away.

I am not condoning genocide. I just question if there is another solution. Do you or anyone honestly believe that if Israel ceased and stopped retailiating that the Palestinians would stop launching rockets, blowing themselves up in markets, shooting, or kidnapping people? If so I don't think you quite understand what is going on.

To me the ball is entirely in the Palestinian and the Muslim world's court. As long as they want the conflict to continue it will, unless someone on the Israeli's side snaps and decides to end it in a most horrible way. I've posted before that in my opinion it is only the ghost of Hitler that has prevented Israel from accepting this conclusion.

I agree with you that genocide is immoral, however things between nations are only illegal if they agree to the treaty making it illegal. There is also nothing preventing a nation from withdrawing from a treaty. As to arresting people and charging them with war crimes, who are these policemen with the power to enter a soverign nation and arrest people and ship them to the Hague for trial. I'm not aware of them.

 

@the Great Snook: You've got some nerve to talk about "freedom" when a wall has been erected turning an entire population into prisoners.

I don't think you have any idea of what you're referring to when you use the word "genocide"... Vernichtung ... Have you heard about Rwanda, about Hiroshima, about Auschwitz and Dachau?

You wouldn't be so quick about talking of this as a "solution" (a word used by the Nazis by the way) if you knew more about history.

My advice to you: watch Night and Fog and then if you can still consider a genocide as a "solution"... well I have nothing more to say to you.

 

They say good fences make good neighbors. Israel is trying to build a defensive buffer. I would think you would applaude that as opposed to killing more people. It isn't a cage, it only has one side.

I am sorry if you have been confused. I am well aware as to what genocide is. I am Jewish afterall and was one of the first posters here complaining about Zimbabawae (sic). I take umbrage to your claiming Hiroshima was a genocide. That was just a very effective bomb.

As to not calling genocide a solution that is naive. I am not saying it is a good solution, however I'm curious as to how things will turn out when the Palestinians exhaust the patience and restraint of the Israeli's. At that point the Israeli's will have two choices. One is to abandon Israel and seek asylum for their population in other countries (afterall there isn't any other unclaimed territories that I'm aware of) and the second is genocide. I am a realist and don't see any other solutions.

As I have said repeatedly in this thread and others. Peace is dependent on the Palestinian/Muslim side. There isn't a single action that Israel can do to make them stop killing Israeli's. If anyone can honestly come up with a gesture that Israel can do other than dissolving as a nation that would appease them, I will nominate you for your Nobel prize. Only they can decide when to stop the killings.

 

how is this wall making them prisoners? it prevents them from entering israel's territory, it doesnt stop them going anywhere else. the israelies dragged their own people kicking and screaming from their homes in the west bank, in theory 2 men can live together in peace but its those xenophobic genocidal maniacs in palestine who constantly attacked and killed innocent people- that is why israel needs the security of a big wall, to protect their homes.

also, we talk about genocide, that is palestines goal, the erradication of the jews and their state, there is another man who has attempted the same and he will always be remembered as an evil dictator.

 

If the fence would not include Palestinian land, it would be completely justified to build it...

There is a solution: Stop killing Arabs, stop invading Gaza or the West bank in full force. Just don't react to terrorist provocations. It worked in the nineties, it can work again. That way, terrorist attacks will get terribly unpopular with the Palestinian population.

 

And how exactly would that happen? Why would the terrorist attacks get unpopular with the Palestinian population if Israel does not retaliate?

So, just to make clear, you are proposing that the Israeli just stand and do nothing while the palestinians shower them with rockets and send suicide bombers? You think this would ever work? (or that it has worked at any time in the past?) And again, what would be the incentive for the Hamas to stop?

And regarding some earlier posts: it is not that I do not feel empathy for the palestinian population. Still, I cannot but feel that the current situation is in great measure their doing. Remember that several years ago, Israel offered them a deal (land for peace, I think it was the ideea; there were those talks at camp David, with Clinton's mediation). Arafat refused, despite the urgings of the neighboring arab countries to accept the deal. Then a little afterwards, the intifada started (by the palestinians, by the way.)

 

The Israelis must of course defend themselves - but they have done more than that.
There's routine humilation, indiscriminate killings and innumerous outrages dealt by both, Israeli civilians and soldiers that nation can pride itself of.

The majority of Israelis want peace and coexistence. Still, I saw the sheer hatred and abuse aimed at those Israelis who make a stance for peace. Like the Palestinians they have to contend with factions among them that are happy to keep the conflict going, for any number of reasons. It was an Israeli who killed Rabin when negotiations went 'uncomfortably' well back then. No laying hands on the land their god promised them and all that jazz.

 

Don't you guys think we lack far too much info about this situation? I mean, you're repeating your opinions without adding anything interesting or even new facts to the topic, just the same old quickfixes.
I haven't read much about it, but it's weird. A while ago I read that Israel had gave back that Gaza chunk to Palestine. And in the last few days they've been launching attacks on that territory with bombs and stuff. 51 Palestinians died, 26 civilians. All for what? A soldier? Just one soldier? Who is he? Avner? To me it can be two things: it's just an excuse or/and they're overreacting. Also only one Israeli soldier died. That speaks of how uneven this fight is.
They should try the diplomatic approach, once every day before their daily attacks. They would save a lot of money in guns & ammo. Meh.

 

I'm guessing you have never read "Starship Troopers" or know anyone who has served in the military. One of the key tenets they have is that they never leave someone behind, it motivates them into going into places a civilian never would.

 

Starship troopers in no way personifies the proper role of the military or modern military thought on war. The author of starship troopers implied that force is the only way to maintain order and peace. Take any ROTC class and they will teach you that all war is the direct result of a diplomatic failure. Starship troopers is an interesting work of fiction.....and an interesting commentary on one man's views about the purpose of the military, and of war in general. In the end, though, they are nothing more than one man's views.

 

True, war is a direct result of a diplomatic failure. However, you will be hard pressed to find a military member who doesn't believe when it is time for war you don't hold back. It will be even harder to find someone in the military who would be willing to leave a soldier behind (Viet-Nam POW MIAs anyone?)

 

Snook, as Dendri wrote, Israels measures go over the top a lot more often than it is wise. That way, the terrorists get a comfortable stream of new recruits.

One side has to back down. Israels abilitiy to do this is far greater than the Palestinians, because Israel has a central authority.

 

But the Palestinians claim Jeruzalem as their own, and everyone knows that particular issue is non negotiable. So as long as the Palestinians don't review their wishes, there will never be peace in that region.

 

The kidnapped soldier (now soldiers) are such a big deal precisely for diplomatic/symbolic reasons. Apparently, some branch of Hamas is responsible, and has claimed such, thinking they could kidnap soldiers then negotiate prisoner exchanges. Given that they are the elected government, such an act is a severe provocation, pretty much an act of war.

Yes, Israel has gone back into Gaza for militant planners and rocket launchers, but the argument was that these were criminals the Palestinian government was unable or unwilling to pick up. The kidnapped Israeli was a soldier at a checkpoint, on Israeli soil, doing standard duty. The point seems subtle, but diplomatically it's really a big difference. If some settler militant had been kidnapped on the Israeli side of the border shooting rockets into Gaza, or an Israeli spy been caught operating in Gaza, it would have been a completely different matter.

As much sympathy I have for the Palestinian people, especially with Israel's apparent lack of concern at collateral damage to innocents or infrastructure, this was a supremely stupid diplomatic decision on the Palestinians' part. Of course the Israelis will go after them in this case. It's just a shame the Palestinian people have to pay for the stupidity of their government (as is usually the case)...

 

The other thing that should be pointed out is that there is no rule that states that the fight has to be a fair fight. If one side has vast military superiority over the other side, that does not mean that the superior side cannot use this advantage. The Palestinians are making the classic mistake of bringing a knife to a gunfight.

That having been said, I do find the Israeli reaction to be extreme. It's one thing to retaliate, but quite another to send in gunships and artillery pieces.

As none of us live there, I think it is hard for any of us to really assess the situation the way the Israelis see it or the way the Palestinians see it. I imagine that the actions taken by both sides seem completely justified by the populations of both countries.

 

There is a saying that the presence of an overwhelming force deters hostile action. In most cases this is true. Fewer neutrals will join the fight if faced with certain death (and a significant number of hostiles will withdraw -- live to fight another day and all that...).

Every day has been a war for the Isreali's for decades. Their school are bunkers to prevent grenade and firebombs from being thrown in the buildings -- they sacrifice the ability of their children to evacuate quickly to make the schools a hard target. The Isreali's learned long ago that many extremists view children as legitimate targets.

Every day Isreali's go to work using public transportation KNOWING they could die. Public transportation is a favored target of militants.

To the Isreali's they are at war -- and have been long before 9/11. On 9/11 Americans saw a small part of what the Isreali's go through and we retaliated with just as much vigor as the Isreali's (and we are nowhere near their death toll). The issue of a single soldier (or even a few soldiers) being kidnapped is just the latest in a LONG list of offenses against the Isreali goverment and people.

Swift and harsh retaliation may create a few more volunteers for Hamas, but it certainly discourages many others from helping Hamas in any way.