The New Catastrophe in Gaza

Remove all ads!

BOC made a fine point, imo. Disjointed policies, anyone?

What does Israel hope to achieve there in Lebanon, I wonder. Destroy Hizbollah? Sure, good luck with that. Hizbollah is more than a militia. These people *are* the south of Lebanon; running schools, hospitals, providing for the infrastructure. Nothing short of depopulating the region will put an end to it. Seeing how Hizbollah (and subsequently this conflict) is a direct consequence of their former interventions, it is clear to me what this stunt will do for Israel's future security and prospect of peace. Why, I can see Hizbollah 2.0 on the horizon even now. Hearing of intentions of bombing Lebanon 20 years back? I say Israel has everything coming that's heading her way. Obviously they want it that way.

 

Yep, why not ? Perhaps they want escalation in the region, so that they can deal with their rivals once and for all. Who's to say ?

 

Nope, that's not the way they want it. Not if there is a shred of sanity and love for life in them. They cannot rid themselves of enemies, coz they would have to kill millions and millions to end this. Not an option, you'll agree. Israel needs to abandon this reactionary policy. There wont be a future for the Israelis should they keep to it. They may be on top now, but fortunes have the habit of changing. An Israel of agitation wont last.

 

I just think the whole saga is one huge tragedy. So many lives lost, for what? Makes me so thankful for the things I have in my life.

 

Um, the equivalent of what the serbs wanted to do in Kosovo would be for Israel to expel all arabs from West Bank and Gaza (send them to Egypt, or Jordan). Maybe you forgot, but the serbs were famous for ethnic cleansing. On the other hand, quite a lot of arabs live in Israel itself in peace.

Also, I do not rememeber the muslims in Kosovo sending suicide bombers to Belgrade.

After all things, though, I think the Israeli are making a mistake withe their handling of the Lebanon situation. There are too many civilian deaths, and too much destruction of infrastructure.

 

Which is what you should expect when the stated goal is to "put them back 20 years".

 

As opposed to the entity having the stated goal of wiping the entire state of Israel off the map? Are the Israelis at fault simply because they're the better prepared? There was no "Palestinian state" until the Arab world realized that a Jewish state really was going to happen, and that was their way of trying to get a piece of the pie - too bad they rejected the piece of the pie they were given. Oh, you've forgotten about Jordan was designated as the location for the Palestinian nation, but that it wasn't good enough (seems that it's been good enough for the Jordanians ever since). It must be nice to have the UN entirely on your side, that every time you pick a fight and find yourselves facing a massive, humiliating defeat to be handed a victory.

@BOC: I agree that Jerusalem should be an international city, under the jurisdiction of no one nation. Unfortunately, that idea was floated back in the days of the original partition plan and was soundly rejected by all parties involved.

 

Except from the fact that you fail to see the paradigm i used from the Nazi side (They had occupied an area and there was a resistance against them) you fail also to understand that the Jewish station has ceased to be when Romans conquered it. And to add to that i guess you also fail to understand that Palestinians are the breed and outcome of the various races that dwelled in that place (Jewish, Romans, Arabs you name it) the only thing that mainly changed is the religion of the majority which was turned to Muslim, due to the ways religion (and Muslims were quite effective at that) was used that old days.

So i don't insult anyone and furthermore just so you know i know about the Resistance, having both my grandfathers fighting during WW II and afterwards when Greece was occupied. And they were treated like Israel treats now Palestinians. I have at least the clarity to acknowledge that.

I think we read different history, Israel got in there in full force by mercenary armies of themselves plus the protection of the Great Britain and USA.
Brief History
And they also did not choose to share their land. The Balfour Declaration was not to be followed and facts show this.

Furthermore if you care to read the link i provided you will see that Israel was founded without any negotiation with the populations (leaders of them) that inhabitited the area.

I doubt that very much. The main problem is that Israel is behaving very badly towards its neighbours for years now. The Arab nations have tried once to wipe out and took their lesson. Now all i hear from the Jordan King and the Agyptian President plus the last decades pleas of Arafat is to be found a viable solution for the Palestine and Israel state to coexist.

I bet that should this thing happen things will quite down. And as i have said most Muslims get the notion to join this militaristic groups, because the Quran states that they should help their brothers (in religion) when in need. Wipe out that need, you hit a major blow in the arguments one can say for recruiting people in these groups.

No there is not, these religions coexisted peacefully many years. Somehow the religion got in this conflict because lunatics from both sides made it so. They are distinguish between the two confronting states just by religion. As if this was true. Well it was/is not since there are religion minorities from both sides (at least for Palestinians i am sure) and especially for Palestinian Christians i know that the situation is a little better because they can have the church as a shelter.

The settlers are in Palestinian area if you see this pic
So it is not a land they "own" unless of course they plan too. Your paradigm with American settlers forgets that the land was not "owned" by any nation, but the indian tribes that lived there and had a disagreement on the way settlement of their areas was proceeding, got dispatched to Manitu.

There were murderers on the other side and one of them right now is president of Kossovo for the Albanian side. I don't see any action against them though.

As for the ethnic cleansing, you know, it happened from both sides. And still in Kossovo Serbian origin citizens have to go to shopping with the use of one UN armoured vehicle and some UN soldiers. That is when they even dare to go to shop in an Albanian predominated city. But Milosevic was an *@&*@( granted that and used very bad ways to solve problems within New Yugoslavia.

As for the Kurdic issue, it was fine when they served no other purpose other than of a rogue nation within two nations. And Turkey has invaded numerous times before in Nothern Iraq to "dismantle" the PKK when Shaddam was in power.

But now Kurds are a major stabilizitation player in Northen Iraq (they played very smart their cards) and releaved US troops from policing a big area that also has oil. So now to touch the Kurds in Northern Iraq is a no no policy.
Bigoted it is, and helps alot to show how West politicians think.

The notion of wiping Israel of the map was not the case for many years, untill that joke for a President of Iraq expressed it again. Sure radical elements were using it, but they are still the minority, allthough Israel actions do boost their numbers.

By the way Palestine existed before the Israel nation and Britain founded it after the WW I as a way to keep it away from the French.
As for the matter of prepair, Israel is the only country that was allowed to build up an army and a weapon industry. I don't see any Arabian nation to be able to do that despite the fact that they have the funds.

UN is supposed to be in noones side. And for that matter i find disturbing the fact that UN forces are not going anywhere in that region (Israel/Palestine) unless the Israel concedes so.

It is sad to see this thing going on and as i have said noone is innocent. Both sides are pulling the rope and the simple folk is left in the middle unprotected and dying everyday (from both sides).

This thing can't end if they are left alone since hate has managed to make strong roots in everyone there. To blame one side only is at least unfair so somehow all of them must be drawn to the table not only the Arabs but the Israelis too and bind them with chains there untill they reach a viable solution.

There are people from Israel and Palestine that have worked together and managed to make some proposals for an agreement but both sides are disregarding them continiously.

Of course it was rejected. Jerusalem is the status quo of the area whoever has it has the crown sort of. The proposal of BOC should not be a proposal to them. It is one of the few times i agree that it should be forced upon them.
UN speaker--> Jerusalem will be under UN control for ever.
Israel representative--> No way
Palestinian representative--> No way
UN speaker--> This is a fact not a proposal so STFU.

 

This morning on the news a report states that two (clearly marked) Lebanese ambulances have been blown to bits by Israelie forces. With the equipment that Israel posesses, I find it hard to believe that it was an accident.

When terrorists in Ireland (yes proven terrorists) were shot by British soldiers, Americans were quick to criticize, but its a different story when its Muslims rather than Irish. It was not justified to target our or the Republic's infrastructure, and its not justified to target Lebanese either.

 

The main flaw I find in common defenses of the tactics of Israel is that they always seem to take the form of blanket generalizations about Palestinians or (more often) Arabs in general. Why does my critique about the stated tactics of the Israeli government warrant a rant full of blanket generalisations and stereotypes about the entire Palestinian people?

Such a rant in no way adresses my cynical little critique of Israel's (the state, not the people) stated tactical goals in this conflict. Even if it were the objective of all Palestinians or all Arabs to wipe Israel off the map, purposely attacking the infrastructure of a neighbor, destroying their power plants and even targeting hospitals over the kidnapping of 2 soldiers is just not justified.

Individual Palestinians (not the Palestinian government since there is no Palestinian state) have also done unjustified things to Israel in retaliation. It does not mean that all, or even most, Palestinians actually feel that Israel should be wiped off the map (although, the longer their plight continues, the more of them will be converted to that viewpoint). Nor does it mean that Israel's (the state, not the people) retaliation launched against the whole of Palestine/Lebanon/Syria/etc is any more justified than the attacks made by individual Palestinians/Lebanese/etc.

 

Get your nose out of the air, Drew. I'm not talking about the entire Palestinian people, or the entire Arab people, and you well know it so stop trying to claim moral high ground by making it seem that I am. Just as you have a beef with how the Israeli government is pursuing its interests, I have a beef with how the groups claiming to represent the interests of the Palestinian people are pursing those interests. Incidentally, I have no beef with those interests themselves.

If you like, I'll start typing out "the groups claiming to represent the interests of the Palestinian people" instead of "the Palestinians", but I'll also be sending you the bill for treatment of the RTSD that ensues from coddling your hypocritical inability to make a logical leap when it weakens your argument.

[ July 25, 2006, 14:43: Message edited by: Rallymama ]

 

Perhaps they have a very good reason to open fire on ambulances. Everything is not always what it seems. In WW2, British pilots opened fire on German vessels marked with red crosses, after they found out that they also had other purposes than just picking up Luftwaffe pilots from the water. Those ambulances might have just as well been transporting ammunition.

 

There is no news of militants using ambulances at the moment.

Telling people to leave their homes and then destroying the roads is bad enough, but to then destroy ambulances is a new 'low'.

[ July 25, 2006, 12:31: Message edited by: Cúchulainn ]

 

Just because there is no news doesn't mean that it's not so. We only get to see and hear the tip of the iceberg in conflicts like this.

 

With unknown numbers of dying and wounded civilians those undoubtedly overstretched ambulances have nothing better to do than shuttle ammunition around the place. Yes.
You cant possibly believe that, Pac.

I heard the Israelis use incindiary Phosphor weapons. As Rallymama said - they seem to be well prepared for this indeed, and have paid attention to what the USA did in Iraq.
Saw some disturbingly burned Lebanese children on the news. Remarkble, how these refugees always get in the way of bombs... I mean, Israeli military is known to go out of its way to spare civilians...

 

Egeland just accused Hizbullah of "cowardly blending" among women and children, and of boasting of how many citizens were killed:

In addition to storing rockets in mosques, hospitals, and schools. Why not move rockets about in ambulances?

I don't buy comparisons between PPK/Turkey and Hizbullah/Israel. Maybe if the US were talking about how Turkey should be eliminated as a nation and given back to the Byzantines, and supplying and directing the PPK as a proxy against Turkey...

And what's the point in citing all these "Zionist" arguments here? Are you really basing your arguments on the idea that Israel shouldn't exist, and that this justifies Hizbullah, Syria, and Iran? For *all* the other governments in the region this is no longer the issue; they expect there will be two states, and the issue has to do with establishing borders, resource allocation, etc.

Sure, many many people were done an injustice by the establishment of Israel, but that's not the issue here (and don't forget that lots of Israelis are decended from people forced out of their historic homes in Arab countries without compensation at the same time). If everyone in the world took up arms about land their ancestors lost due to politics, the whole world would be at war...

 

Whoever Egeland is, I think him/her not very credible. S/he heard Hizbollah cheers over the casualties among their own countrymen? Their families?

Why even bother asking this question? The stated goal of Israel is to dimish Lebanon 20 years worth of rebuilding. How is that done if not by destroying cities and all that makes them functional? Who cares about rockets and where they got stored really. A matter of convenience, nothing more.

However, for the sake of argument: I am not defending the Hizbollah and their alleged tactics. I have issues with what a supposedly civilized nation's response shouldn't be. Namely launching rockets at civilian targets, willfully accepting the deaths of dozens of innocents, all the while hoping - at best - to hit enemy combatants.

That's just so Israel.

You know, this argument strikes me as the least fit to put the Arabs at ease, since it were the Israelis who popped up and laid claim to land their brothers in faith lived on 2000 years ago, causing no end of strife. With that done we will expect the Arabs in question to see the light already. Too bad for them reason got delayed by a few decades.

 

This is a **** situation but every time I see smoeone claim some moral highground I get sick. The only "moral highground" there is in this situation are all the innocent people caught in the middle and the Israeli military are killing a lot more of those than any "official" terrorist organisation. In my opinion the Israeli government is a terrorist government who uses billions of dollars to kill, maim, terrorize and repress people in their effort to root out the people fighting them. People who fight them with equally dirty methods. The people who suffers are the Israeli commuters who get blown up on a bus or Palestinian family sitting down to dinner when an artillery shell lands on their table. Not the filth in Knesset (and Washington) or the various warlords twisting the minds of yet another generation of young arabs. These people dont want peace, they are happy with the killing. Gives them purpose, gives them power. If the Isreali people would actually rise up and get rid of their militaristic semi-fascist leaders and install a true democratic government and if the arabs would stop listening to power mad demagogues we could come somewhere but that wont happen because even the man the man in the street is too dumb or too brainwashed to see the bigger picture. Entire region is like a sandbox where two three year olds are fighting over the piece of cat turd they found.

 

Um, it's the Palestinians who have been launching rockets at Israel on and off over the last 6 years. And they don't even pretend to target enemy combatants. To me, it seems like your description is just so Palestine. The only other way I can interperet your comment is that Palestinians are not civilized people. It's bad for the Isralis to do this because they're civilized, but it's OK if the Palestinians do it because they aren't civilized?

 

Um, the Israelis have launched rockets into Palestinian territory, waltzed entire blocks of houses, destroyed bridges, airports and governing buildings. Israeli settlers make a sport of taking shots at Palestine slums from behind the military guarding them. No matter what their pretension was, the loss of civilian life was invariably high.

That's just so Israel.

The difference is, that the Israelis are a unified nation with a central government and democratic institutions, whereas the Palestines are a mottley crew of desperate people.

A difference that has meaning. At least it should have, in my opinion... if not in yours, Aldeth.