The Netherlands has just reached rock bottom... again

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True, but i have to add something to that though. The lines of decency were crossed time and time again by van Gogh, hurling more and more insults towards muslims. Now i know that in this country you can say whatever you want, but if someone keeps insulting me, over and over again, sooner or later i will bite a chunk out of his ass, you gotta know when to stop and Theo didn't know that. It was only a matter of time before someone who wouldn't take it any longer would step forward.

 

Then why hasn't every rapper on this planet been killed yet? They have a habit of insulting more than just one group of people. The fact that this person targetted muslim fanatics is what got him the bullet in the skull, not his swearing.

 

@Apeman,
you're probably right about me being biased. But being of a religion doesn't mean I'm like all the others of this religion. Not all muslims are the same, nor are all christians. And remembering the lot of what Van Gogh had written, he doesn't see or want to see the difference within one religion.
Van Gogh had a nag to take an average muslim and bombard him as an extremist.

Of course, I rather see all extremists burning at the stake, whether christian, muslim or atheist. And if it depends on me, a lot of immigrants would be sent back (if it could be done in a proper way).
I often had the feeling that he started with one minor thing and ended up with scattered pieces of muslim extremist.
Freedom of Speech, okay. Freedom of Insult, rather not.

He had written about christians one time. Mentioned something about christians I had nothing to do with. But I'm a christian and people know. People reflected what he said on me. It was a simple thing, so I didn't care much. But if this happens to muslims, about more important matters, I can imagine they (and I) would get really pissed. (As Pac Man mentioned)

Edit:
Abomination, I don't know exactly. But Rap is music that not everybody cares to listen too. Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh were not rappers. One was a politician, drawing quite some attention to say the least. The other was a columnist/filmdirector, being on television, in the papers etc. I think the impact on people is much heavier than a musician's. (??)

 

Hardly. You'd be surprised how much influence musicians (pfft, calling rappers musicians, the world HAS reached a new low) have - at least in the US and NZ. Not everybody in turn cared to listen to Van Gogh either I would imagine.

 

Perhaps not, but his insults attracted more attention than he'd bargained for.

 

Seems like one's continued breathing depends on who is critizised. Moore harshly attacks Bush in a not always appropriate way, and is still among us. Van Gogh pointed out the misery of some women in muslim culture - now he is dead. Oh, and labeled a bigot, too.

A little while ago a docu was aired here, reporting of muslim women in Germany who are forced into marriage - which is, of course, against our laws. In case they deny their families its time to go underground, or end up dead. The docu also informed that certain books became popular with certain muslims; books about the treatment and position of women in general. Books recommending violence against women should they fail to accept their place.

The team of reporters investigating for this docu went in search for muslims to discuss and visited mosques. Not peaceful conversation ensued... the reporters were physically attacked and kicked out of the mosques. Not even the camera filming prevented it. The main muslim organisation in Germany (I think its properly translated as 'Council of Muslims') was approached to make a statement, but refused to even meet the reporters.

Muslim women-in-flight, when interviewed, accused the german society to look the other way, leaving them to fend for themselves, doing anything but taking a stance against the abuse they are being dealt. Why we ignore their plight? Because its a touchy topic and we cant take the risk that some political correct people proclaim: "By and large, the people who raise ethnicity, race or religion as a segregation issue have a strongly anti-(race/ethnicity/religion) bias." Yes.
Therefore we think it wise to ignore what is happening right in front of our faces. We are multicultural, after all, our standards and laws dont apply to all who live in our country.

A guy spoke up - oh and look what happened to him. But I am sure I am the only one who feels something is wrong here and that the only way to comment on it is that not all muslims are like that.

Interestingly the docu I mentioned was aired late in the night. Better not being too obvious about it, someone might take offense and call us intolerant. Feels funny that we have to be so... silent and quite in our own country.

 

@Mon

I don't think he saw a small radical group as a representative of the whole muslim religion. Point is he kinda made it look that way to the world which was not that smart if you look at it now. He's not stupid though, he said himself one day that he was too arrogant for protection and he send those guards away. He was making a point to the world and somewhere I think he meant to say 'kill me now and you prove I was right all along'

Anyway I know the difference between that small group and the whole religion. I also think it's getting out of hand for the last few years and measures will have to be taken as you said, although not the stakeburning as I assume was a joke.

I saw a documentary once where they interviewed several muslim woman about when it is appropriate for their husband to physically abuse them. They answered with 'burning the food' 'talking back to my husband'
These were normal households here in holland mind you so I wonder how far these 'customs' are intwined within their religion.

 

These customs are deeply rooted, and they don't want anyone to interfere, unfortunately this is MY country, not theirs.

Not too long ago i interfered in a situation where an Arab man was beating up his wife. It happened on the outer ballustrades of the appartment building i live in, and he was doing it right in front of his doorstep, so everyone could see it. I was alarmed by screams from people standing on their balcony's across the street, they were yelling at him to stop what he was doing, but he kept beating and kicking her, he even busted in his own frontdoor, he went completely berserk. I live one level higher, and went down. When i entered the ballustrades i told him to stop, but he started cursing me out in Arab, so i whacked him in the nose as hard as i could. He went down and didn't feel like coming up again. However now his wife started yelling at me, she even spit on me. In disbelief i went back upstairs, i couldnt believe that THAT was my "thank you". I assume she rather takes a beating from her hubby then that some stranger beats HIM up.

Ah well, screw them then. Next time i won't lift a finger, i'll even cheer the guy on from my own balcony, and play The Prodigy's "smack my bitch up" as loud as possible with all windows open.

 

That's my main problem with the guy.

Also, when people were showing their emotions, he enjoyed to make fun of them. Not in a sarcastic way, but really cynical and low. Even after their death.
More, calling muslims 'goatf**kers', Mohammed a childraper and Jesus the rotten fish of Nazareth wouldn't help you either. That's just as stupid as calling homosexuality an infectuous disease. If you want to make something clear to people, do it in a respectable way.

That was generally why I didn't like him. Still, it's a sad thing what happened.

The deeply rooted customs is a different thing, but I like to see it changed. If these muslim women don't mind their men are beating them, sad but okay. If christians see sex as a way to get children and not for enjoyment, sad but fine. As long as they don't expect me to have the same opinion.

 

I think she felt bad because she lost face. Muslim men aren't the only ones who have been brainwashed into thinking wifebeating is acceptable, the women have been brainwashed too.

 

Some of these posts are horrifying, implying, or plainly stating, that van Gogh deserved what he got, followed by a hypocritical disclaimer that it's too bad he had to die, accompanied by a pious heavenward glance. The man was murdered in a particularly brutal fashion for exprssing an opinion that opposed brutality and oppression; this in a supposedly free and tolerant country.

Some of the other posts aren't much better, saying plainly that one mustn't express an opinion that might upset a fanatic because he might get upset and hurt you. Too bad, since fanatics get upset about damn near everything that's outside the brick wall of their mindset. And all we can do, according to these brave souls, is shut up and take whatever's dished out to us.

If you have a poisoner in your living room, do you ask him to stay for dinner, or do you put him out of your home? This is no easy question in a democratic society that prides itself on its tolerance, but when someone who is a distinct outsider settles in another culture, I believe he has a duty to accomodate himself in at least a minimal way to the accepted norms of that culture. He has no right to outrage those norms and then claim he's being stigmatized unjustly for his behavior. "Hostages in your own home" is probably putting it too strongly, but it's something to ponder.

 

Matter of fact, yeah...in a way he DID bring it on himself. Why was it necessary to insult an entire race of people over and over again ? It's not that it happened once or twice, it happened at every turn where he got in the picture, as if he was on some kind of personal crusade or something. Like i said, nobody deserves to die like that, but if you keep insulting people long enough, and i DO mean insult them DEEPLY, sooner or later even the most decent man loses his patience.

I'm not fond of Islam either, but i don't put my message in films, or write it down in collumns for popular newspapers. This man had a lot of influence with his tongue and his pen, and he used them as venom. Over the years he made a lot of enemies, among Christians, Muslims, Jews, and even the Royal family, he simply did not know when to stop. He got death threats, he was offered around the clock protection, which he declined, it was like if he was looking for this to happen.

Again, nobody should die like this, but in all fairness, i hated that guy when he was still alive. He was nothing but a groce, sweaty, chainsmoking loudmouth, who only seemed to enjoy himself when he could insult someone or something.

To be honest, i won't lose any sleep over his death.

 

Since I don't live in the Netherlands, I wasn't aware that Theo van Gogh was such a provocative guy, seemingly going out of his way to be as obnoxious as possible to one and all. I still don't think this justifies his being shot, stabbed, and having a note pinned to his chest with a knife in the public streets. Did his work advocate violent action, or was it opinion, however strongly expressed? If the latter, then I'll stand by my earlier post. (Perhaps he refused police protection because he believed he lived in a society where opinion could be expressed freely, without fear.)

 

IMO, whether his comments were originally justified or not, his death justifies them by itself.

 

How ironic, an anti-extremist has been made a martyr.

 

Some of the opinions being expressed in this thread are truly frightening

 

Well, me being in my own little corner of the world, I'd never heard of van Gogh before today.

And though I myself follow Islam, I support the basic human rights of freedom and free speech, and on that basis alone, I'd say his death is a sad thing.

It is sad because it highlights some of the worst things about human beings, as a people.

That being said, I cannot say I'm going to miss him and his anti-Islamic feelings...

 

I too live in the Netherlands and these problems kept me busy long before Theo van Gogh's or Pim Fortuyn's death. I respect our Islamic countrymen for the most part. In my opinion it's the 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants who are the troublemakers around here. I always had a more right-winged perspective of what to do with those people who don't respect our country and the rules that apply to people living in them.

I must say that this changed when I yesterday heared about my brother who was beaten by one of those North-Afrikans of the 3rd generation. My brother is a soccerplayer (not proffesionally, but as a hobby). My father is a referee for that team. My brother was watching a game where my father was referee when he noticed one of the "fans" of one of the playing clubs was making unpleasand remarkes concerning my father. When my brother asked this person if he could stop that he got a fist in his face. He got several blows to the head and he was kicked in the stomach. When other people noticed this, my father saw it too. When he ran to help my brother he got punched in the face too. Then the guy who did all the beating ran away.

My brother is afraid, but not badly injured. The thing that has changed is that my brother and father would always notify the police. But now, since this murder, they both are affraid the guy who did it would take his revenge. The only thing this guy is facing is punnishment from the Dutch Soccer-organisation KNVB. But the only thing they can do has to do with his soccer hobby.

I do not like this world any more. I am not someone who crumbles under this kind of thing, I am not affraid or anything, but this isn't the world I want my future child(ren) to live in...

Now I did this post I'm feeling relieved. Thanks for listening/reading!

 

Yet more threats:

 

The Islamic Tawhid brigades is full of ****, bring it, i'd like to see them do something besides filling Islamic sites with their lame jihad stories. They are just a bunch of kids with too much free time on their hands, who made a hobby out of making empty threats.

They have nothing whatsoever to do with the bombings in egypt, that's what they wish. The Israeli police had a completely different stories. It's just a bunch of hamas wannabees, not even worth giving attention.