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The Latest--and Last --Harry Potter...

Discussion in 'Booktalk' started by Cernak, Jun 4, 2007.

  1. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Chandos, you’ve mentioned Shakespeare’s Hamlet a couple of times, so I’m going to address that.

    I am in no way a Shakespeare expert (and I barely even remember the story), so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but to my knowledge, Shakespeare never actually stated that Hamlet was gay (and, in fact, I don’t believe there is any consensus on this even today). But wasn’t there enough “evidence” in the story to suggest that Hamlet might have been gay, without us actually being told he was gay? Otherwise, why would people think there was such a possibility? Now contrast that with Dumbledore – I highly doubt that anyone would have suspected he was gay without Rowling saying he was. To me, that’s a fundamental difference. It all goes back to what I said before – if an author is going to make a claim about a particular characteristic of one of the characters in a story, there should be enough evidence within the story that would allow a reasonable reader to at least suspect it was true without needing the author to come right out and say it. Personally, in many cases, I’d rather an author not say anything, and let the readers come to their own conclusions.

    You made this comment regarding what I said about most people assuming someone is straight without evidence to the contrary:
    But an “assumption” is not the same thing as thinking that it’s a “simple reality”. To give another, but less controversial example, I generally assume that sidewalks are made of concrete, because that’s how most sidewalks are constructed. But if I find out that a particular sidewalk is made of interlocking paving stones, I’m not going to despise the people who built it (assuming of course that it was built properly so that I don’t get my high heeled shoes caught in the cracks). Similarly, I assume that a fictional character (or non-fictional person, for that matter) is straight because that’s my perception of how most people are; that doesn’t mean, however, that I don’t recognize that many people are gay, and if, in the course of reading a book, I realize there is a possibility a character might be gay, I don’t hate the author for that.
     
  2. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Splunge - I once had an English prof, a damn good one, who never gave away his own opinions on which approach he used in interperting literature on a personal level. But he once confinded to me that the fun was playing with all the different "lenses" and "prisms" through which a work of fiction may be viewed. But he never committed himself to anyone elses interpretation, no matter how much we prodded him, but he only allowed us to see for ourselves and draw our own conclusions. I tend to agree with that approach amd have often used it myself.

    So forgive me if I politely sidestep the issue of Hamlet's "gayness." But I will say that it is seriously considered in some literary circles. Nevertheless, it's not important to the larger themes within the play. I suspect the same is true in the HP books. Hence, the reason I'm intrigued by the emotion that Rowling's comments have generated here and elsewhere.

    I was not so much referring to anyone here as "despising" Rowlings in particular, but generally she seems to have garnered some vehement detractors with her comments. Yet, Rowling has been fairly foward in defending her comments on literary grounds:

    It seems as if she is saying that the evidence is there. And while some have commented that they saw it coming, others just did not see it. Thusly, it can be argued that it is a natural biased towards gays that some missed it. I'm not saying that I agree with that assessment, only that it may be valid arguemnt by her defenders.
     
  3. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Splunge, seriously no clues or hints? There is no mention whatsoever about any kind of spouse to Dumbledore (one of the female kind) for such an important character that should ring enough bells. Unmarried old man if that does point towards homosexuality I dont know what does. That alone is really enough justification right then and there. It isnt written on the wall but the Dumbledore character works just as well gay if not better than he does straight especially since sexual orientation is such a small and unimportant part of the character. It is if anything asexual, a burned homosexual who found no tmie for any kind of love in his life.

    Oh my god, I am analyzing Harry Potter, I am 27 years old. At least I dont go to conventions, live RP or LANs!
     
  4. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    @joacqin: I know plenty of unmarried men who are definitely not homosexual, starting with myself. Besides, there is no mention of a male spouse of any kind (unless you count Grindelwald); this does not mark Dumbledore as heterosexual. ;) :p

    (And by a similar argument, we'd have to accept that both Bilbo and Frodo Baggins are homosexual! :eek: I am positive this was not Tolkien's intention!)

    There's nothing wrong with analyzing Harry Potter. People have been analyzing Lewis Carroll and Hans Christian Andersen for ages - though, with all due respect, I don't think J.K. Rowling can measure up to them. Like Alice in Wonderland and The Little Mermaid, I don't think Harry Potter was written only for children.
     
  5. Sir Belisarius

    Sir Belisarius Viconia's Boy Toy Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    When Rowling emphasized the relationship between Grindewald and Dumbledore, I admit I was thinking that they may be gay - but I just thought they were close like Frodo and Sam, Legolas and Gimli, or Merry and Pippin. You know, brotherly love, like Philadelphia...
     
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