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The identity of the Nameless One

Discussion in 'Planescape: Torment (Classic)' started by jesper898, Nov 21, 2001.

  1. Platter

    Platter Can I buy you a tankard or two, lad? Veteran

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    No, when Ravel killed the original incarnation to test his immortality, he instantly forgot everything, as we learn from Ravel;
    Ravel: "... Not long after the spell a-drew to a close, I killed you to see if it had worked. You struggled so, but I kept my grip *tight* and watched you die your first of many deaths." Ravel *clacks* her teeth. "Then was I a-learned in its flaws..."
    Nameless One: "What flaws?"
    Ravel: "Ego enwraps us like a prison. Forgot I did that it ofttimes serves as a shield." Ravel clicks her tongue. "My pretty, pretty thing, there is much wisdom and understanding in the truth that life is a preparation for the ultimate goal: death. Our life is a means by which we learn *how* to die. If we FORGET such things..."
    Nameless One: "So that's when you discovered I lost my memories when I died..."
    Ravel: "Yess..." Ravel nods. "Unfortunate... without the mortality to hold such memories tight, the shell a body is..."

    And also from the original incarnation himself;
    Good Incarnation: "I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
    Nameless One: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
    Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."

    Not to mention the fact that you can get killed by Shadows all you want in the game without loosing your memories.
    Neither of these are ever said anywhere in the game.

    She says that "t'was so long ago," and she is also described as "old."

    We know for a fact that the Paranoid Incarnation was after the Practical Incarnation. A few examples;
    1. The Paranoid Incarnation's Dodecahedron journal mentions the legacy that the Practical Incarnation made;
    Dodecahedron journal: "A LEGACY, the note read, 'FORGET NOT TO COLLECT YOUR LEGACY,' and a small CODE scratched beside it: 51-AA..."

    2. The Paranoid Incarnation was haunted by Deionarra's ghost, while it was the Practical Incarnation who killed her;
    Nameless One: "Why did Deionarra have to die?"
    Practical Incarnation: "Deionarra? That girl had little sense of the Planes in her, and that was what I needed her for. You see, the Dustmen have it right - sometimes when you feel too much passion, you cling too tightly to life to let go. And neither did Deionarra - as I hoped she would."
    Paranoid Incarnation: "That WOMAN - that GHOST?!" The hunched man's eyes well up in fury, and spittle flies from his mouth. "She TORMENTED me for years, pursuing me, hating me, and YOU WERE THE ONE THAT KILLED HER?!"

    3. The Paranoid Incarnation changed the tomb the Practical Incarnation built (see below).

    Nameless One: "You built that tomb beneath Sigil, didn't you? The one with the traps?"
    Practical Incarnation: "I'd almost forgotten - yes, what a waste that was." The incarnation seems irritated. "Obviously, *that* didn't work. And it cost a lot of blood and coin, too." He frowns. "It was shortly after the failure of that that I decided to carry the battle to our killer rather than wait for him to show any longer."
    Paranoid Incarnation: "Worthless!" The second incarnation breaks into uneven laughter, but it more gleeful than mad. "It was EASY to breach that child's trap. I found it... and CHANGED it. To make it HARDER. Changed the WRITINGS."
    Practical Incarnation: The first incarnation frowns at the second; he looks like he is barely restraining himself from attacking the other. "Yet *another* thing you will answer for..." He turns back to you. "Though I suppose it doesn't matter. It was shortly after the failure of the tomb trap that I decided to carry the battle to our killer rather than wait for him to show any longer."

    When he claims to have been a cartographer and killed by Shadows, he is hiding from you the fact that he is the original incarnation - he was lying. He later reveals the truth and tells you that Ravel was the one who killed him (see above).

    [ February 06, 2004, 06:54: Message edited by: Platter ]
     
  2. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    Yep, that's true. So I change my statement. He only looses his memory when his mortality comes into play. The first dead, as the mortality was separated. And every other dead when the transcedent one has something to do with it. Sure is, that the transcedent one has all the knowledge of all incarnations except the knowledge of the living incarnation. I think the memory lose is triggered by transcendent one, when he has a chance to absorb the memories.

    And the transcedentend one is also tight to the shadows that follow you. The maybe bring you to him ?

    But even there is a fault, because if the transcendent one has the memory of the practical one, he'd know about Deionarra and the purpose of her presence. But then again, even if he knows, he doesn't expcet her to be able to save you from his trap, so why would he care.

    Yes that's true either. The problem is, that the crazy one wasn't the first crazy incarnation. There are many and least one who left the message for you by the mother of the seer in the upper district. Which was, according to the description of her mother crazy.

    So yes, the crazy one lived after the practical one, in the time between 4 til 1 year before you, I just made the mistake in the first, to attribute crazy thing to the crazy incarnation you speak to at the end. There are traces of many others around. And my idea, that all those 3 incarnations are represantive of many other incarnations has turned to dust too. If you ask the practical one about ignus, he hasn't a clue who Ignus is.

    It must have been 4 years ago. And she also says, that here eyes have already gone bad, at the time she saw you last. In the meantime it got worse.

    Deionarras father, the lawyer, says that his daughter disappeared four years ago. He doesn't recognise you, because he never got to know the guy his daughter fell in love with, i.e. the practical one.

    No, I don't think he's lying. I think his the first incarnation, the one that stood up after Ravel has killed the original one. And the first who had no memory, because the original one's mortality with all his knowledge went away. But he knows about the original one, because he could tap into the sensate-stone, which seemed to be around when Ravel kille the original one. And when you merge with the good incarnation, you don't know your name and the stroy about the original one. The memories of the original one are in the sensate stone which gives you also your name.

    So, he was the first incarnation, but not the original one. He started to redeem himself with the knowledge of the original one as kartographer. The unforseen problem with the mortality absorbing the memomory, therefore creating incarnations with questionable character and no clue about anything, did cross the redeem plan and made to a failure.
     
  3. ArrynMorgerim Gems: 9/31
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    Anyway I'm plaing it right now and it's pretty clear, that practical incarnation lived a long "life", that he died only a few years ago (probably same as Deionarra) and then came paranoid one, which could be even the one killde in the alley.
     
  4. Lazy Bonzo Gems: 24/31
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    Well the trandescendent one is tied to the shadows in the same way as you are to them; on account of TTO being the separated mortality of TNO. As I understand it the shadows are all the previous incarnations that have died. However I'm sure Platter will be able to produce a quote to support or discard this claim of mine.
     
  5. Rastor Gems: 30/31
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    The shadows are the spirits of those that have died in TNO's place.
     
  6. Platter

    Platter Can I buy you a tankard or two, lad? Veteran

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    ---
    Nameless: "Who am I?"
    (snip)
    Pillar of Skulls: "NOT *WHO* -- WHAT. YOU HAVE BEEN DIVIDED. YOU ARE ONE OF MANY MEN -- ONE IN MANY MEN. EACH ONE -- WHETHER GOOD OR EVIL -- A MONSTER, WHO CASTS A SHADOW UPON EXISTENCE."
    Nameless: "A... shadow upon existence?"
    Pillar of Skulls: "OH, YES." The pillar's heads narrow their eyes and smile grotesquely. "EACH TIME YOU DIE, 'IMMORTAL,' YOU CAST A SHADOW... EACH TIME YOU DIE, *ANOTHER* DIES IN YOUR STEAD. THESE SHADOWS... THEY GATHER, HUNGERING FOR YOU, WITHIN THE FORTRESS OF REGRETS. HOW MANY TIMES *HAVE* YOU PERISHED, NAMELESS ONE? HOW MANY HUNDREDS... THOUSANDS... HAVE DIED, BECAUSE OF *YOU?*" The pillar trembles with wicked glee; its heads pull faces and gurgle mockingly at you.
    (Journal Entry: "The Pillar of Skulls told me that I cast 'shadows on existence' -- that each time I die, another dies in my stead. Those who die in such a manner then become creatures of shadow, and apparently gather and wait for me at the Fortress of Regrets.")
    ---
    Vhailor: *Have you ever MURDERED another?*
    Nameless: Truth: "Vhailor, I think I am responsible for the deaths of thousands... perhaps many thousands... across the Planes. The Pillar of Skulls has said that whenever I die, another dies in my place."
    ---
    Nameless: "How did you die?"
    Good Incarnation: "In the end, as I traveled upon the fields of Bytopia, terrible shadows took on life as I lay sleeping. I died as I felt their claws upon me."
    Nameless: "They are the shades of all those that died in our place."
    Good Incarnation: The man looks pained. "Yes, I know... I know that now. One cannot be in this place of regrets and not feel their agony."
    ---
    It's pretty clear, eh? Then explain the fact that the Paranoid Incarnation killed Finam's father 50 years ago.

    Finam: Finam nods. "Strangled, he was. He had left to tutor someone - he taught various languages to supplement his research income - and was discovered dead in a side-chamber of the Civic Festhall. The killer was never found. This was some... oh... perhaps fifty years ago, now. I was but a child."

    [ February 08, 2004, 04:53: Message edited by: Platter ]
     
  7. ArrynMorgerim Gems: 9/31
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    Now this is a mess. I don't want to blame the story writer, but it seemed to me quite often it's not particularly coordinated(?).
    But it seems I was mistaken. I somehow did not noticed that. Sorry.

    P.S. Explain to me this then:
    Paranoid incarnation noted in his journal, which he wrote 50 years ago (according to Finam), that he was haunted by Deionarra (in fact he's not specific!), who was lured to death by practical incarnation only a few years ago (according to her father)! No solution here, I think (except for time non-linearity or how it's in English)...

    Btw, PST is a bloody good story anyway. It's better than most fantasy books to be sure.
     
  8. Platter

    Platter Can I buy you a tankard or two, lad? Veteran

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    ^ We never learn when Deionarra went to the Fortress and died, the only time frame Iannis gives is "not long ago" and "some time ago", which still doesn't fit.

    You can get killed in the game by Shadows (which are sent by TTO) without loosing your memories. So I don't think that has anything to do with it.

    I'm sure Morte would have noticed something like that. And Annah found your body in the same Alley that you have the flashback of dying in.

    So maybe that was the same one. We already know that the crazy incarnation we meet in the Fortress was alive 50 years ago (see Finam quote above).

    Why?

    Yea, she could have been middle-aged back then and it would still be reasonable for her to have bad eyesight.

    But he doesn't ever say this.

    But in that story, he says he is killed by Shadows. There would have only been one Shadow if he was the first incarnation after the original one. And it is the absorption of this incarnation which allows you to use the Bronze Sphere. Besides, that theory is just a completely ridiculous interpretation and the BIGGEST stretch EVER considering the wording of the conversation. Come on, you have to admit it.

    Nameless: "So, is it possible that the first of us - the real one of us, before all the incarnations, might still be buried somewhere in my mind."
    Good Incarnation: The expression on the incarnation's face flickers for just a moment, but it is like a window, and you suddenly realize who it is you are speaking to.
    Nameless: "*You* were the first of us."
    Good Incarnation: The incarnation's eyes take on a haunted look, and his gaze turns away from yours. "I know what you are thinking - but it is not the case. You think that knowing the mind of the first of us will somehow help you here, in this place. It will not."
    Nameless: "But why - I have so many questions that YOU can answer. Why did we become immortal? Why?"
    Good Incarnation: "Because if we die, *truly* die..." The incarnation looks up at you, and his eyes are like steel. "Death's kingdom will *not* be paradise, not for us. If you spoke to these others that were here, know that a fraction of the evil of their lives is but a drop of water compared to the evil of mine. That life, that one life, even *without* the thousands of others, has given a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity."
    Nameless: "But you seem so much... calmer. More well-intentioned."
    Good Incarnation: "I became that way, yes. Because for me..." His voice takes on a strange echo. "It is *regret* that may change the nature of a man." He sighs. "But it was too late. I was already damned."
    "I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
    Nameless: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
    Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."

    After having read that, you're trying to say he is not the original, mortal incarnation? Biggest. Stretch. Ever.

    [ February 09, 2004, 04:34: Message edited by: Platter ]
     
  9. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    He says it when you get the testament of the daughter. I am quite sure about that. Four years, I wonder where I'd get that number from then.

    Well, yes. I posted before that the timeframes are confusing and contradicting. I took the seer as time-frame. The message you get from her is very old, but seems to be from the crazy one. Which did puzzle me quite a bit, as it clearly didn't fit in the time-frame as I was playing.

    Well, I acutally have read "that" and was pretty sure, that the good one wasn't the original one. So, but after reading this quote, I am a little bit shaken in my opinion. There would be an possible explanation, that the texts may differe a little bit, as I use a localized version. Anyway, I am not doubting the accuracy of your quotes. But I have to read them again in my game, to see if I erred while playing or if there are some quotes missing or different.

    Particularly to get the exact quote of the lawyer about his daughter. Therefore I have to check my savegames. This will take some time, till I get to it.
     
  10. Platter

    Platter Can I buy you a tankard or two, lad? Veteran

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    Ah, that may be the problem. I can assure you my quotes are 100% exactly as the text is in the English (North American) version, which is the original version of the game (it's not localized).
     
  11. ArrynMorgerim Gems: 9/31
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    From the incarnations dialogues it seems that the practical was the first in the fortress, left Deionarra to die (she was there with him), and was killed as well.
    The paranoid one confirms that he was "haunted" by Deionarra.
    The practical also mentions that paranoid kept destroying clues he put for future incarnations, should he fail.

    The date (50 years ago) of Finam's murder (which is the paranoid's work) seems t be mistake then. I think they had many versions and segmnets of the story and they didn't noticed some contradictions in the final version.
     
  12. Platter

    Platter Can I buy you a tankard or two, lad? Veteran

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    Don't forget that Aelwyn met an incarnation matching the description of the Paranoid Incarnation "perhaps no more than fifty years ago."

    Also, Hamrys was a child when the Practical Incarnation had Hamrys' father build the tomb, and the Practical Incarnation also says it was shortly after the tomb was built that he decided to go to the Fortress ("It was shortly after the failure of that that I decided to carry the battle to our killer rather than wait for him to show any longer."). (Though you might be inclined to believe he was planning for 50+ years before he actually left.)

    When you get the key to your room in the Festhall which belonged to the Paranoid Incarnation, the clerk says "The easternmost chamber's been waiting quite some time for your return." and "My ledger indicates that this is your key, sir, and has been for a good, long time."

    So you can't just ignore the Finam part and have it all fit, because these other points fit with the Finam timeline.

    IMO, if there is any one person you can ignore to make the most coherent timeline, it's Iannis. And he doesn't even give specific times anyway.

    [ February 11, 2004, 03:33: Message edited by: Platter ]
     
  13. ArrynMorgerim Gems: 9/31
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    You are right, there are far more contradictions than just Finam. The scroll from the fortune-teller is 50 years old as well, and it quite matches paranoid's style (words in capitals, body-theft-acusations).
    But to me the confrontation of practical and paranoid incarnation about Deionarra (together with the female ghost entry in dodecadheron journal) are strong enough arguments to say practical incarnation lived before paranoid, but not a long ago or few years ago (according to Iannis). Paranoid's datation (which is always 50 years ago, iirc) must be wrong, then, or they simply made a mistake when writing about Deionarra's ghost troubling paranoid incarnation.
    If that was right (nobody ever said that paranoid incarnation made it to fortress of regrets) then practical is much more old, as it imrpisoned Vhailor, gave Dakkon UCoZ and got Morte. But practical incarnation talked Pharod into searching for the bronze sphere and he shouldn't have been very young at that time...
    Now I really don't believe there can be some straight timeline.

    [ February 11, 2004, 21:34: Message edited by: ArrynMorgerim ]
     
  14. Rastor Gems: 30/31
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    I was under the impression that Practical made the dodecahedron, in which case he was the one that killed Finam, not Paranoid.

    IIRC, the Practical was actually the one that was a member of the Sensates (with Deionarra) and he was therefore the one that left everything in 'your' room, including the journal and spell scrolls.
     
  15. ejsmith Gems: 25/31
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    There's the room with the dodekahedron, but then there's the sensate stone. And if practical had run into that, would he have escaped? And not destroyed it? And would the stone have remembered that someone had already been there before you?

    The stone and the room stash and Fenham's death. All those together cause problems with the chronology. It could have been anyone, just a Joe Schmoe, killed in the alley. And I seriously don't think it would have been paranoid that had said "I'd like a boon, please."

    I wish the BIS (ex, that is) designers would release a chronology, with all the events that you find in the game, listed...
     
  16. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    And I thought that every time TNO got killed he lost his memories but in the game he has his journal with him which helps him to regain those memories fast, is it proven somewhere in the game that TNO doesn't loose his memories allways when he dies?
     
  17. ejsmith Gems: 25/31
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    I think it's paranoid that finds out after "three more incarnations", you'll get to keep your memories.

    Or, it would seem, all of your memories return to you. Which is kind of convienient, what with you being that third incarnation and all. Which brings me back to the timeline thing. Pardon me if it's been run into the dirt, 6x10^8 times.

    Incarnation was 50 years ago, and that's by that language instructor's death. Dionerra died sometime in-between that time, which I was thinking like 5 years ago or something. Whenever, that was during practical's reign. I kind of wonder if, in fact, it was practical that died in the Alley (HEH! I made a funny!! I rule!!!). He's the kind of guy that would wipe out a bunch of people, and ask Pharod to keep his body intact. And he may have returned from the Fortress, and disbanded from Dakon and the blind-archer guy. Which means, Dakon wouldn't have seen the archer die, so he might very well not recognize him.

    But the archer's been dead for *quite* some time, I thought, simply from the description of his zombie.

    It's the timeline that screws me up the most. And (to be honest), I think there's just one single change in all of this that would set everything right, and it was just an oversight on the QA.
     
  18. Platter

    Platter Can I buy you a tankard or two, lad? Veteran

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    ^ As has been proven multiple times and ways in this thread, we know the Practical Incarnation was before the Paranoid Incarnation, no matter how you look at it.

    A simple skimming of the journal to see how it's written with frequent CAPS and in a paranoid, crazy manner makes it obvious which incarnation it's from, even before looking at the rest of the facts, such as; Which incarnation can you speak to in Uyo in the Fortress? Or this from the trap Sensory Stone;

    Nameless: "Did you create that trapped dodecahedron?"
    Paranoid Incarnation: "I don't know what you're babbling about. Heh. Heh-heh. All right, it WAS me. BRILLIANT, wasn't it? Did you PLAY with it a bit? Lose a FINGER or an EYE, I hope?" He chortles merrily.
    Nameless: "Clever, but I opened and read the thing just the same."
    Paranoid Incarnation: Your earlier incarnation looks horrified. "NO! NO! NO! IMPOSSIBLE! No one reads the language it was a written in; I slew the ONE man who understood it after he had TAUGHT me. DEAD language, DEAD linguist... a match made in Death's halls."

    This could go on and on, because nearly every entry in that journal is proof that it was the Paranoid Incarnation and not the Practical Incarnation. We might as well be arguing whether or not Annah has a tail.

    This thread is going no where. None of you seem to remember a damn thing from the game. :p
    Don't get me wrong, I know I'm a freak who knows far more about the game than is healthy, but some of the things you guys are saying... bleh.

    [ February 13, 2004, 09:21: Message edited by: Platter ]
     
  19. ArrynMorgerim Gems: 9/31
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    As someone said before, there can not be two skies and Planescape: Torment chronology.

    P.S. That thing about Paranoid I. having been said he would keep his memories only after three more deaths was probably refering to his state that time, or was just a prophecy saying whatever event makes TNO lose memories is coming.

    BTW, Do someone remember what is the outcome of Nordom's analysis (or Grace's) of TNO's condition? Either there is nothing their witts can discover or I have missed something.
     
  20. Platter

    Platter Can I buy you a tankard or two, lad? Veteran

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    ^ There is a bug that prevents that discussion with Nordom from continuing, causing a whole chunk of dialog to be inaccessible. This is fixed by the Fix Pack.

    You were supposed to be able to mention a few new bits of info to him in that conversation as you came across it, like after talking to Ravel, the Pillar, Trias, etc. like you can with Grace.

    But there really is no final conclusion to their 'analysis' in the end. Those conversations are really just to get together the information you already know.

    A prophecy about when TNO will "gain the benefit of keeping [his] memories" to you is saying "whatever event makes TNO lose memories is coming"? Ok...

    [ February 14, 2004, 04:24: Message edited by: Platter ]
     
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