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The identity of the Nameless One

Discussion in 'Planescape: Torment (Classic)' started by jesper898, Nov 21, 2001.

  1. Extremist Gems: 31/31
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    Ok, whatever, just count me out of it. If anyone needs my opinion on Vecna, it is right here.

    I wonder if there will be any search option used...

    [This message has been edited by Extremist (edited November 22, 2001).]
     
  2. Ironbeard Gems: 20/31
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    I feel that I must point out where the nameless one working for Vecna came from. It's a suggestion put forward for his identity in our collective story concerning his fate after the end of the game. The story is to be found lurking, unfinished at the bottom of the Creativity Surge forum, after I killed it off by being over-eager and a bad writer.
    I almost forgot, the theory was that Morte was actually right when he said he was "the Head of Vecna" and it all goes from there...
    Incidentally, there's an amusing P'n'P anecdote about the Head of Vecna. I'm sure someone knows where it is (I can't remember). The basic idea is that two teams of players were trying to kill each other off, and one created a fake "head of Vecna" and left it for the others to find. They were fighting over who got the honour of having his head chopped off to get it on...

    [This message has been edited by Ironbeard (edited November 22, 2001).]
     
  3. jesper898 Guest

  4. Slith

    Slith Look at me! I have Blue Hands! Veteran

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    From what i have read, and what i have played, the twisted minds of Black Isle seem to point towards The Nameless One being Kas, the betrayer of Vecna in his Crazy Incarnation, which would seem to be the only one who could have defeated such a creature.
     
  5. Black Rose Guest

    Wait a second.

    You don't get the Eye of Vecna in PST, right? Right? RIGHT?
     
  6. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] You can get the Eye of Vecna, actually.

    Here, it's an interesting implementation of this powerful artifact:

    EYE OF VECNA
    (Cursed Artifact)

    Special:
    Doubles all 1st Level Mage Spells
    Doubles all 2nd Level Mage Spells
    +35% Resistance to Magic
    +4 Save vs. Death Magic
    -3 to Wisdom
    -3 to Intelligence
    Weight: 0

    Many tales are told of the arch-lich Vecna.

    It is said that Vecna was one of the Planes' mightiest sorcerers, able to draw life from dust and send it back again, extinguish lives with a glance, and make the earth shudder beneath his touch. He was said to be so powerful that when the end of his life drew near, death refused to take him into its kingdom.

    And so Vecna died, yet lived on.

    Abandoned by death, Vecna became the master of a vast kingdom on a prime world called Oerth. Neither kind nor just, Lord Vecna's rule was one of great horror and suffering, and it is said his reach was so great that even the Powers of Oerth feared to cross him for fearing of drawing his eye.

    Yet, while Vecna's gaze traveled ever outward in search of new conquests, he failed to see his own end when it came for him... in the form of his lieutenant, Kas.

    As was fitting for Vecna's left hand servant, the arch-lich had fashioned a terrible weapon for his lieutenant as a symbol of his authority. Vecna made this weapon with such skill it is said that part of the sorcerer entered the blade, and it was this sliver of Vecna that gave the blade its life and its treacherous nature. Where once there was lifeless steel, there became thought, intent, and, perhaps most horrible of all, a voice.

    The sword whispered treacheries to the ambitious Kas, night upon night, month upon month, year upon year, until one night, the remains of Kas' discipline was seduced by the rippling edge of the blade. Convinced by his blade that he was Vecna's superior, Kas confronted his dread master upon his Dessicated Throne, and the two of them fought a terrible battle.

    During the battle, Kas was killed, but before he fell, his blade had dismembered his former master, scattering his remains so that no one may draw them together again. And so it has come to pass that pieces of Vecna have made their way across the Planes... one of these is the Eye of Vecna. It carries with it a bloody, violent history, so much so that many scholars refuse to speak of its treacheries, for fear the eye will come to them, seeking to add another victim to its bloody chronology.

    The Eye of Vecna was instrumental in the extermination of the House of Hyeric, once the ruling dynasty in Nyrond. It is said to have been behind the sundering of the Conclave of Tyssis-on-the-Sea, which led to the three-cycle war that poisoned the seas of Malhatai and left the oceanic world barren of life. On the ashen Plane of Ghalentir, it possessed the gentle father of Sasaran, a babe with the potential to lead his suffering people from their shadowed lands to the Gates of Paradise... had not the eye drove Sasaran's father to murder his son as he lay sleeping in his crib. All these kingdoms, all these futures, the Eye of Vecna laid waste.

    The Eye's powers are said to shift with each new owner, but one thing is certain: no good ever comes from whoever has the misfortune to possess it. It is destined to betray its wearer at a critical moment, failing him when he needs its power the most.

    [This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited January 27, 2002).]
     
  7. Bombur

    Bombur I'm always last and I don't like it

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    Believe it or not, I'm about to post on topic (i.e. not about Vecna):

    First, even if Kas was the paranoid incarnation, the paranoid incarnation was not the first, meaning that "Kas" was not nameless' real name.

    Second, the game offers some insights into the identity of the nameless one, though it doesn't solve the mystery. For example, we learn in talking with Grace that there are two kinds of names, those you are given and those you earn. Earned names are the most telling of a person's character (e.g. Fall-From-Grace, Reekwind).

    Now, when nameless learns his real name, he responds by saying something like, "You mean that was my name all along?" This indicates that his name is something known to him, that is, a word or name with which he is already familiar. He then proceeds to begin (but not to finish) a question inspired by this new revelation, one which begins with "but," as if the revelation of his name brings some confusion to the matter -- as if the name does not completely fit his expectations.

    I would suggest that this confusion/incongruity indicates that the name that is revealed to nameless is contrary to what he knows of himself at the time, or at least that it is counter-intuitive. Since he knows that the first incarnation (whose name it is) was evil and then turned good, there is quite a bit of room for the name to be either evil or good, since either one would contradict aspects of the first incarnation. Or perhaps the name is accurate with respect to nameless' story, and the surprise is the accuracy from so many generations before.

    But getting back to the "recognition" factor, that is, that nameless evidently knew his name as something other than his name in the course of the story... Nameless is sometimes given the option to lie by saying that his name is Adahn (sp?). That's one option, and I'm sure there are quite a few more.

    Here's the one I favor: his name is "Torment." He recognizes this name from his tattoe, of course. Notice that once he merges with the good/first incarnation and uses the sphere, the tattoe "Torment" becomes removable -- he is able to change his name because he now has power over himself and his destiny (recall that with this comes the realization that there is very little he cannot do). The power of the tattoe "Torment" is that it brings the torment of all nameless' past incarnations to bear upon the target, which indicates that this tattoe is nameless' personal tattoe (much like other characters have personal tattoes available, e.g. Tattoe of Annah, etc.), and thus implies a direct correspondence between "Torment" and nameless himself. Also in favor of this idea is the fact that when Fell informs nameless regarding his tattoes, the other tattoes Fell explains represent former/current party members (implying that "Torment" is/was also in the party). Yes, it is possible that "torment" simply describes nameless, but that just makes it a very appropriate "earned" name.

    It seems to me that the name "Torment" also has other things in favor of it, such as the fact that the actions of the first incarnation earned eternity in hell (because he "tormented" others), and the very blunt fact that it is the title of the game.

    If "Torment" is his real name, then his surprise in learning this name may come from the fact that in knowing himself, he is able to be other than his name would indicate, and in fact has been other (both in his first incarnation and in his present incarnation, if the player has played nameless as a good character). There is also the incongruity that in learning his name and recalling his past, he is filled with regret, but he is no longer tormented himself (thus able to remove the tattoe and to change his name). As I suggested, some incongruity is necessary to explain the "but..."

    Here are some added fun tidbits regarding his potential identity: He probably isn't the supreme ruler of the universe (as suggested in a prior post) because he is subjected to punishment ("of a sort") on the lower planes. Also, I don't think there is a "supreme ruler" in the Planescape mythos. The Transcendent One claims, "I am Mortality itself," perhaps meaning "I am *your* mortality itself." But the fact that just "being" mortality itself gives the Transcendent One power over life and death would seem to indicate that it is more than this. Perhaps nameless is not entirely, or at least not merely, human. If nameless' mortality is Mortality (with a capital "M"), then who is nameless? Is he not only the first incarnation of nameless, but also the first man? "Adahn" is rather similar to "Adam," after all. Or is he a redeemer/christ figure? He can save Trias and get a tattoe attesting to his ability to redeem. His entire quest (according to the first incarnation) has been to obtain his own redemption, and when he does obtain his goal, it ends up redeeming the multiverse in a manner of speaking (since his continued existence causes the multiverse to suffer -- which by the way is another good reason to think his name is "Torment"). If he is more than human, as well as human, this also supports his redeemer/christ role (at least in western culture).

    So who is nameless? Is he the first man (Adahn/Adam), fallen from grace (reminiscent of another character's name -- the only character who will stick with him after death, by the way) into a life of tormenting others, causing the multiverse and himself to suffer? If so, parallels to the biblical account of man's fall abound -- and the Fall of man is a dominant theme in medieval literature, on which the D&D genre is based. Is "Adahn" his given name and "Torment" his postlapsarian earned name? And is his self-sacrifice at the end, for the sake of the planes, a redemptive act that provides hope that he will one day be forgiven (like the hope he gives to Trias in the "have you forgotten the face of your father?" dialog), just as Grace (note her name change at the end of the story too, and its implications for he last line!) suggests: "Time is not your enemy; forever is"?

    Granted, it's fuzzy. Any comments?

    [This message has been edited by Bombur (edited April 18, 2002).]
     
  8. Volar Blackmane Gems: 16/31
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    *major spoilers*

    What I remember from the ending (where he learned his true name) is that it was just a common name. Nothing special. Something like 'John' springs to mind. Anyway, he was no great power, he was just a guy who seeked out a night hag to ask her the gift of immortality, to atone for his sins. (The first incarnation got scared of the fate that awaited him, so he wanted immortality, to become a force of good and perhaps get a better afterlife. (God forgives :p)) And talking about Nameless One as redeemer/christ doesn't really fit, as the game can be played as evil (mocking Trias and killing him, after promising to let him live, that sort of thing. So much for the redeemer :p)

    *spoilers end*

    And nothing is said about any involvement with Vecna or Kas. Perhaps Nameless One was in some contact with either (Maybe even being the other.), but there's no proof of that. Thinking on the same line, you could say he taught Elminster, as there is no proof he didn't. With all the silly pieces of Vecna in AD&D, I though Morte's 'I am the head of Vecna' comment was funny. Like the old hag outside the mortuary talking about the hammer of whatever-slaying and spewing lightning bolts from the ****. You're not supposed to take everything seriously.

    Is the eye of Vecna really a real item in Torment? Where's it found?
     
  9. Bombur

    Bombur I'm always last and I don't like it

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    The "redeemer/christ" figure is a stock literary character. He/she doesn't need to be good, just on a quest that is intended to accomplish some sort of redemption or reconciliation. Although the most famous example is good (probably the one you're thinking of?), the influence of the Bible on western literature has led to many sub- and even anti- Judeo-Christian redeemer figures in literature. Nameless follows the pattern, whether played as good or evil, because ultimately he puts an end to the suffering of the planes caused by losing his mortality -- regardless of his motivation. Ultimately, no matter what dialog options you choose, he dies willingly (unless you simply reject the written storyline) and the planes are more peaceful.

    It may be that he is no one special, but I don't think that is the best explanation of all the allusions and metaphors (those I mentioned in my prior post, for example). Sure, maybe all that stuff is just there accidentally, but the care taken with the story in Torment inclines me to believe that it's intentional and therefore meaningful. "John" doesn't explain nameless reaction of "but..." well enough for me -- his name is somehow significant to his story, not insignificant as something like "John" would be. What question could possibly have jumped to his mind at learning that his name was "John"? What would be so surprising about "John"?

    I also think the good incarnation's statement that the evils he committed in his life were so greivous that they rendered the acts of all subsequent incarnations relatively moot implies that the first incarnation was not a nobody. He was so evil that his evil outweighed everything that came after. He was *extremely* evil and caused major damage. This (and many other hints in my opinion) invites us to think of him as someone of note.
     
  10. ejsmith Gems: 25/31
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    "Who is the nameless one actually?"

    His name, in this incarnation, is "Osama Bin-Laden".

    No 72 virgins for him in Baator; Just a big a$$ pile o' skulls, and a nasty looking mace to wield.

    Suckin'.
     
  11. Lazy Bonzo Gems: 24/31
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    [​IMG] I'm not sure if this is in topic or not but while reading through this topic something struck me. When you encounter your 3 incarnations who made it to the fortress of regrets. They all look the same as you but since one is the first surely that one wouldn't look very damaged at all since you are told by various people in the game that your scars look as if they took several lifetiems to acumulate. So the first incarantion should have the tormet tatto certainly but shouldn't be covered in scars. Also the other 2 should be more damaged but you should be the most sicne you are the last incarnation. Does anyone ahve any thoughts on this?
     
  12. Volar Blackmane Gems: 16/31
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    They didn't do a different model for the unseeing eye in BG2 either, and that was a huge beholder missing his central eye. Guess they just don't bother :rolleyes:

    Anyway, the point with "John" was that Nameless One was expecting something far grander, because of what he was. Then when he found it out, he was surprised saying something like "Is that it?". The whole idea was that his name actually wasn't anything special :p I didn't make it up, the game says something like 'it's some common name' when he finds it out.

    [I'll just remove the Osama bit as the guy doesn't seem too popular. Let's see if ejsmith removes his bit.]

    [This message has been edited by Volar Blackmane (edited April 21, 2002).]
     
  13. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] You know, throwing Osama into this discussion was really, really lame. I won't flame you, I'll just close the topic down if any more people start talking about Osama. If you want to show your appreciation for mass murderers, do it somewhere else. Preferrably off my forums. Because it's not funny even as a joke.
     
  14. Bombur

    Bombur I'm always last and I don't like it

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    If the game says it's a common name, then I totally missed that part. Are you sure about that, or just going on memory? I'd explore the dialog myself except that my IEE won't open it for some reason (maybe because of this weird 2CD version I have of PST).
     
  15. Lazy Bonzo Gems: 24/31
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    [​IMG] Bombur it doesn't say that it is a common name becasue it doesn't say the name at all to the player only to the nameless one whose response is "But.." . From this some people have speculated that his response was due to his surprise to learn that his name was something like Fred, common name, rather than for example Bonzo the Great, amazingly powerful adventurer name :grin:
     
  16. Bombur

    Bombur I'm always last and I don't like it

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    That's what I thought, but Volar wrote: "I didn't make it up, the game says something like 'it's some common name' when he finds it out." I wanted to know if the game really said that somewhere, or if Volar was mistaken when he said he the game actually said something like "it's some common name."

    I freely admit it's all speculative (unless Volar is right about the game saying it's a common name), but I do think some speculations have more merit than others. Moreover, some speculations are simply more fun. ;)
     
  17. Volar Blackmane Gems: 16/31
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    I'm pretty sure. Maybe someone (Hey, Extremist! ;)) could find the bronze sphere dialogue bit from somewhere, as I doubt anyone wants to play through the entire game through again just to find out.
     
  18. Extremist Gems: 31/31
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    The sphere wrinkles in your hands, the skin of the sphere peeling away into tears and turning into a rain of bronze that encircles you. Each droplet, each fragment that enters you, you feel a new memory stirring, a lost love, a forgotten pain, an ache of loss - and with it, comes the great pressure of regret, regret of careless actions, the regret of suffering, regret of war, regret of death, and you feel your mind begin *buckling* from the pressure - so MUCH, all at once, so much damage done to others... so much so an entire FORTRESS may be built from such pain.

    And suddenly, through the torrent of regrets, you feel the first incarnation again. His hand, invisible and weightless, is upon your shoulder, steadying you. He doesn't speak, but with his touch, you suddenly remember your name.

    ...and it is such a *simple* thing, not at all what you thought it might be, and you feel yourself suddenly comforted. In knowing your name, your true name, you know that you have gained back perhaps the most important part of yourself.

    In knowing your name, you know yourself, and you know, now, there is very little you cannot do. The first incarnation's hand is gone from your shoulder, and he is watching you with a slight smile.

    NAMELESS ONE TRIES TO SPEAK: "That was my name all along? But if I was-"

    The first incarnation holds his finger to his lips, silencing you. He nods at the symbol at your arm, as if indicating you should make use of it.

    -------------------------------------------

    That's all about it.
     
  19. Bombur

    Bombur I'm always last and I don't like it

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    That's about how I remembered it. Volar, maybe you understand "*simple* thing" as a reference to his name, whereas I read it as a reference to the experience of remembering his name -- no earth shaking experience, but rather comfort.
     
  20. SleepleSS Gems: 24/31
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    Sorry but when I read all of this, I'm getting confused, I did never had the power to read the real name in the bronze sphere, could somebody please just give me that name withoud all thos theories?

    Oh wait, I think I get it, the player shall never know the name right? TNO hears it's name, but the player will never know am I right?



    [This message has been edited by SleepleSS (edited April 23, 2002).]
     
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