The Blame Canada for Avril Lavigne Topic

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Well, as far as Blender's list is concerned, I automatically reject any list that doesn't include "I've Got a Grand New Pair of Roller Skates" by Melanie.

Plus, being a big fan of early Chicago, when Blender says "at one point Chicago were a fairly well-respected rock band. Then Peter Cetera joined...", they clearly don't know what they're talking about, since Cetera was with the band from the start. Although the song they mention does suck.

Not that any of the above has anything to do with the topic at hand.

Actually, Bion is correct to a cetain extent about Canadian bands generally not breaking new ground (although there have been several who jump on new trends early enough to be considered at the forefront). Plus Canadian bands tend to have a difficult time getting international recognition if they are trying to do something other than mainsteam music. British bands, for example, have a history of setting trends, and therefore the British music scene is watched more closely. Canada, however, is largely seen as being very similar to the U.S., and so is generally overlooked in favour of the U.S. scene.

 

@ Bion...A few ill-tempered kvetches:

First off, this is the same magazine that declared The White Stripes the "Greatest Rock & Roll Band in the World." I trust the musical tastes and pop-culture historical fairness of these douchebags about as well as I trust R. Kelly to be a counselor at a girl scout summer camp. Gimme a break.

I won't argue whether or not you should like them, as many people don't - so I respect your disliking their sound. But to say there's "nothing original" about Barenaked Ladies is just silly. Like them or not, they're one of the most original bands to hit pop music in decades. Their songs are light-hearted, very smart-assed, mix several styles, and I find them very enjoyable. They aren't out to win any awards for musicianship or be fawned over by music-junky types who brag they have bootlegs of Lou Reed shows, they just want to have a good time and make damn sure their fans do the same. Most bands try way too hard to be way too serious. To that end, BNL are more original than most. They're a refreshing antithesis to the Pearl Jams of the world who take themselves too seriously, and the Limp Bizkits of the world who make it "cool" to act like complete neanderthals (gimme sumpin' da break!).

If you think they're so impossibly "unoriginal," name for me a few bands who they so shamelessly rip off, if they're so phony. Site an example or two of them sounding exactly like everyone else. Otherwise, that's just a lame (and, ironically, unoriginal) statement.

So what? Who says music has to be risky to be good? If you're looking for "risk" in BNL's music, then they aren't for you and you've completely missed the point of what's great about them. And besides... do you think the rap sequences in "One Week" weren't risky? When it came out right in the midst of the Grunge ending/Rap metal ushering era? Please.

That would be a fair comparison, I guess...if BNL were anything even remotely resembling grunge...and they aren't. Try this, in a similar vein:

I'm not a punk fan, but I can accept that there is something to the music of Dead Kennedys or the Clash. Dave Matthews Band are at the way, way back of the punk train.

Sounds stupid, doesn't it?

Stop reading Blender. Blender bad. Blender wrong. Blender not know ass from hole in wall. Blender not your friend.

[edit - I realize that comes off as a little empassioned, but I assure all that I'm picking a fight all in good fun. Heated debates about music are fun.]

[ May 06, 2004, 04:29: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

 

I have to say that even though I'm not Canadian, there were quite a few bands on your list of "Bands only Canadian people will Know." Like Our Lade Peace, whom I love and own all of their albums except the first one. I first heard Superman's Dead on the Alternative radio station and was hooked thereon. And I also know Matthew Good Band, even though that's through a Canadian friend who was kind enough to gimme some music of thiers.

But, the point is, just because it's made only in Canada, doesn't mean that other people who aren't of canadian descent haven't heard it before.

Now, to the topic. I can't believe that you don't like Alanis or BNL! If that's not originality, I don't know what is! See that "punk" thing that Avril swears that she is? Alanis Morrissette started that. Sure, she hasn't had as much success with SFIJ or Under Rug Swept,(which I like a whole lot more then SFIJ), but it's still original. And I have to agree with Death Rabbit. BNL's just trying to lighten up the music scene, everything can't be all depressing-like. In the end, if you don't like it, don't listen to it.

P.S. We forgive you for Avril and Celine.

 

USA can't blame Canada for **** music any day. As long as they keep pumping out **** like Christina Agiulera, Britney Spears, Madonna, N'Sync, BSB, 5ive, and other general pop music.

But, Sweden is far from perfect. I apoligize for the Rasmus, ABBA, and other ****ty music.

 

I have to say, Caleb, that I quite liked abba. But that's just me.

 

Neil Diamond? Damn sorry my mistake I must say that I have no idea who this Neil Young is then...

Maybe he is pretty good !

 

That's kind'a wierd, why blame a country for the individuals who followed their own dreams. I mean, look at Bryan Adams, his "The Only Thing That Looks Good on Me Is You" does indeed sound like crap, but his "Summer of '69" still rocks.

 

/me selects "Spirit of Flame" feat...

Death Rabbit wrote:

This has to be the most hyperbolic statement I've seen in decades

First they're "one of the most original bands in dacades" and now they don't really care about musicianship and "just want to have a good time"? Boy, that's original, a rock band that wants to have a good time!

I would agree that BNL are smart-assed, but in an infuriating junior-high come-over-here-so-I-can-smack-you kind of way. I mean, even the name "Barenaked Ladies", which must be the most cloyingly smug, wink-wink aren't-we-clever name for a rock band ever. Not that I am against nerd-rock by any means; just listen to BNL next to one of the other (far better and more clever) examples of the nerd-rock genre such as the Talking Heads or even Ween.

(By the way, if you have a line on someone who has good Lou Reed bootlegs, let me know!)

Yes Pearl Jam sucks, and Limp Bizkit should be put out of it's misery; you'll find no disagreement with me here. But telling me that BNL is better than LB is like saying pulling a wisdom tooth is better than a root canal.

(run) dmc wrote:

There are times where "greatly complex" isn't such a good thing. Sometimes too much complexity (along with too high of a voice) can lead to migraines. And methinks Alex "I lie awake, staring out at the bleakness of Megadon" Pert spent too much time at that old SciFi bookstore on Queen Street West (was it called "Dekka" or something?).

But OK, dmc, I will admit that Rush was at the very least original prog rock band.

DarkGoddess wrote:

No, I'm afraid Alanis didn't start punk, or grrrl rock, or whatever. Alanis was the result of a successful marketting ploy aimed at producing a Liz Phair for 11 year old girls. I wish "You Can't Do That on Television" were still on so we could enjoy green slime being poured on Alanis' head.

No, I'm afraid that "Summer of '69" still sucks. For one thing, as Bryan Adams was born in the "November of '59", he would have been 9 years old during the events related in "Summer of '69", which makes the song seem either comically improbable, or cynically calculated to cash in on some kind of nostalgic rock-n-roll moment. But then again, I suppose "Summer of '77" isn't quite so catchy.

A far better '69 song is "1969" by Iggy Pop and the Stooges:

it's 1969 OK
all across the USA
another year for me and you
another year with nothin' to do

Iggy Pop rocks!

 

Is that because you apparantly couldn't back up your lame "unoriginal" claim?

Still not really an answer to my above challenge, and sadly misses the point of the quoted statement in question, which is to say that all bands have an agenda and theme; BNL's happens to be silliness and humor. I'm still waiting to learn of all the bands they so shamelessly rip off.

You're basically arguing that they suck just because you don't like them, and you don't like their name, nothing more. Again, I'm not argueing wether you should like them or not, because frankly I don't care. But you aren't really proving anything other than "they're just lame," and you can't (and shouldn't even try) disprove someone's opinion.

I really would like to know what's so terribly awful about them, as I've been a fan since long, long before they ever hit the mainstream and have always appreciated their offbeat humor and brilliance (IMO, of course). You seem to be arguing based almost solely on their singles, which, I admit do get annoying when they're overplayed (whose songs don't?). Do you have an arguement at all that has anything to offer other than your own personal musical preference? Because I could argue the musical significance of Limp Bizkit even though I can't stand them.

(And by the way...I really like and appreciate Pearl Jam, although they do take themselves far too seriously.)

I do, but...if you were he, would you let them go?

 

Death Rabbit wrote:

Darn, and I thought I was being clever!

So you actually want me to *prove* that BNL are a bad and unoriginal band?

Well, I guess that's always a problem in art criticism; there's no real formula to what is good and bad, so that in the end, taste is determined by argument and consensus.

But if I had to come up with *evidence* of BNL badness, I would cite the following:

1) Whenever I hear a BNL song, I feel like I know, with an excruciating amount of certainty and dread, *exactly* what their next chord change is going to be, *exactly* what their guitar and vocal sound is going to be like, *exactly* when their next silly rhythm change is going to be, and *exactly* where their poppy little melody is going to go. Why? Because it seems to me that I've heard everything they've done before from other pop venues. The slight differences in formula don't really translate to "originality" to me, because I expect originality to be "challenging."

2) BNL lyrics simply make me cringe. This is true whether it's one of their "joke" songs, or one of their "serious" songs; in fact the combination of the two - this sickening oscillation between "aren't I clever" and "aren't I sensitive" - only makes it worse for me.

Now, I don't feel the need to go in depth and point out where for example chord changes in BNL songs were first used in other songs, etc. Cos this would miss the point, and besides, this kind of innovation isn't necessarily what defines good or bad rock music (look at blues, which has produced a huge amount of original work based on a simple set of chord changes). What bothers me about BNL is what I see as their shameless pandering to popular taste.

This might not count as *evidence* to you, but really, I find it hard to imagine how one could produce real evidence of whether one band is better than another. In practice, this is a matter of *critical consensus*: where, for example, most (reputable) rock mags would treat Velvet Underground as an important and pathbreaking rock band, even though they didn't sell many records, while Clarence Clearwater Revival were far less important, even though they sold far more.

For your enjoyment, I'm pasting a few reviews for BNL from NME, a smart and historic mag.

Review
Barenaked Ladies : Maroon
OK, Friends: razor sharp script, dead funny and all that, but deep down it sucks, right? Why?

Well, for a start, whenever Ross bangs on about dinosaurs the rest of the cast make jokes about how boring he is. No way! Dinosaurs are both ace and infinitely interesting. And then there's that episode where Rachel persuades a lass to shave her gurly hair so that Ross won't find her attractive any more.

Duh, that's so straight! Total 'comedy-of-conformity' bulls***. And then there's that excruciatingly embarrassing scene where our chums get terrifically excited when they score tickets for a - wait for it! - Hootie And The Blowfish concert!!!! The bastards are actually as ridiculously, tastelessly square as the hero of American Psycho - except that in Friends this squareness is presented without any irony whatsoever. Uh, so why are we talking about Friends rather than the Barenaked Ladies, dude? Because they are SO F***ING BORING! OK, here's some track titles - 'Too Little Too Late', 'Never Do Anything', 'Pinch Me' - and, guess what, THEY ALL F***ING SUCK! Not just Weller, Ashcroft or Belle & Sebastian sucky but Mike & The Mechanics, Tin Machine and, yes, Hootie And The Blowfish sucky.

So how does 'Maroon' compare to previous BNL albums? Who knows? Who cares? Nobody with a smidgen of soul has EVER listened to one all the way through and this poor bastard hopes he never has to ever again. EVER!

Review
Barenaked Ladies : Stunt
Even the Bible got it wrong occasionally. Judgement Day will not be heralded by the clarion call of Archangels' trumpets, but by the trilling ooze of FM rock. What better way to catch humanity so deep in sin that the big lad upstairs will decide that a couple of lifetimes in purgatory will be the least we deserve.

The release of the fourth album by Canada's Barenaked Ladies, then, should have all of those millennial sects grinning smugly, for there's no more vicious indictment of a civilisation that laughs at Friends and gave both the Crash Test Dummies and Weezer hits, than the fact that these cohorts of Satan have sold six million records and had a Number One single Stateside with 'One Week'. 'Stunt' could variously be described as melodic, quirky, dull, soulless and plain, good old-fashioned horrible.

In effect this is They Might Be Giants without the tunes, Carter without the anger and Travis with all of the punk rock sucked out of them. This, in short, is the end of Western civilisation disguised as The Spin Doctors' greatest hits. A cunning stunt from a bunch of... well, use your imagination.

Review
Barenaked Ladies : It's all been done
Every time I am lucky enough to review the singles, there are one or two bands who continually crop up, despite having been flayed alive and had their rotting corpses fed to the dogs, critically speaking, on a previous meeting. They still come back for more. Recently I had a dream where Barenaked Ladies were performing their wry, witty, clever hit single 'One Week' on a popular TV show, grinning to each other in that blubbery tw*t-bearded way of theirs, and I had a huge chainsaw, with which I joyously sliced all their heads off to stop them torturing me further.

Mercifully for them, this is nowhere near as murderously irritating. No pseudy wordplay or in-jokes, no echoes of They Might Be C*nts, just a Traveling Wilburys B-side. That kind of paunchy MOR never gets as far as your subconscious. It can simply be avoided, like fresh dog turds on the pavement of pop.

 

WOW! All this over a Canadian band!

It brings a tear of joy to my eye.

Oh, and Bion - it's Neil Peart, not Alex.

 

Well I have to say that anybody who can put Belle and Sebastion and sucky together has to know Jack S*** about music. But it's what I've come to expect from that pinnacle of crap NME. I think the Barenaked ladies are a fun to listen to group who have an interesting take on how to make music. I'm sorry if I dont worship at the alter of blandness like Iggy pop. But as for Alanis, I think her first album was excellent. It took a slant on idie music I hadn't heard before.
I agree with Death Rabitt that music is purely subjective, so I really cant see how just because some reviewer agrees with you view point Bion, you think you are right. Look at the amount of people here saying you're wrong. That is consensus.
Rush are an extremely good act, that dont rely on the same old sort of sound to make money. So his voice is high? So's Justin Hawkins of the Darkness and they kick ass! The Bee Gee's were extremely popular and Barry Gibb had a really high voice. Tone has NOTHING to do with originality or talent or anything!

 

@Splunge- Thanks for the correction; my Rush cassettes have long been in storage somewhere (yes, dmc, at one point I did purchase a couple of Rush tapes, and yes, I actually did listen to them once in a while, even if I did suspect that Geddy was singing things only my dog could hear... )

@takara- Iggy Pop is worshiping at an "altar of blandness" while BNL is "interesting"!? What kind of Orwellian doublespeak "up is down" 2+2=5 madness is this? The horror!

I had no idea the likes of Alanis and BNL had such a following among CRPG fans. Is there some reason for this? Does this bear further study? Can too many late nights staring at a CRT cause some kind of neurological damage that would lead to this condition? Could this happen to me as well? Is there a public health expert in the house who can help clear up this connundrum?

 

@Bion

Perhaps those who judge Iggy are doing so only from the standpoint of the critical success of his released music...(one word, "PoP Muzik"), and are not aware of the influence he has had, behind the scenes of those who carried the banners of Punk/Progressive.

I am not a big fan of BNL, although I have to tip my hat to any band who can include "Harrison Ford" and "Sailor Moon" in the same song.

Basically I responded because I sensed an attack on Canada...our amorphous neighbor to the North. I love Canada...they are the perfect neighbor...they have wonderful ski-slopes, they give us the best ice hockey in the world, they are "mostly" with us on any scrap...and they seem to be mostly pretty reasonable blokes (although, never, ever drink their whiskey or beer )

That's all. Poke my friend...you poke me.

Has anyone poked you lately?

 

I don't think we should have to apoligize for **** all. If America doesn't have to apologize for ALL the **** they put out, and Russia doesn't have to apologize for tAtU (or whatever) then we don't need to feel sorry for giving you this.

 

Yeah MC, that is pretty much what I said and thinks as well.

However, I think that alot of you are taking this discussion waaay too seriously.

 

LOL. Sorry about that. I was pretty drunk at the time I wrote that.

 

How about we take a page out of South Park's book and just blame Canada for everything?

Either that or blame me.

 

Canada be saved by The Birthday Massacre.

USA... Iggy Pop be good, though most that comes from USA is pure s***. Maybe i'm listening to more "old" music than what MTV would want me to listen to... brainkilling pop, bleh.

Oh! I almost forgot! Link to TBM's site(if anyone would be interested, though i seriously doubt it ), anyways: TBM's site , Firefox won't open it so use the crappy IE instead, and pray that both your souls and connections be prepared.