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The Big Gun Control Rant

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Iku-Turso, Sep 30, 2008.

  1. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    This is a false analogy, though an understandable one and one I've seen before. My father owns a number of guns and enjoys shooting them at the range, yet he has the utmost respect for them and does not 'play' with them. Likewise, I have a number of swords which I enjoy swinging around, but I also treat them with the utmost respect and do not consider them toys.

    While the reasoning is believable, the evidence does not bear it out. In places where guns are suddenly (or gradually) banned, knife crimes do increase. Of course, crimes are also redistributed away from the fatal kind (murder) and more towards the non-fatal kind (attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, etc.). Still, if the arguement can be applied to guns, then why not knives? Why not bows? Why not anything that can kill and doesn't have an indispensable purpose?
     
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  2. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    Tal: Exactly, it's the Handguns that need to be controled most.

    Martaug: With the gun registry, whenever the cops are called to a home for any intervention, they can check their computer to see if there are registered firearms. In most offenses, they sieze the guns as a precaution.
     
  3. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Yes to #1 - i have a fairly good size collection including models manufactured between the late 1880's to the present.

    Yes to #2 - although i would classify it as fun just like others enjoy golf or tennis or any other activity that requires a level of commitment to be good at.

    But mainly because i was raised in what in the states is refered to as the "gun culture" & also into a family culture of serving in the armed forces that goes back to the early to mid 1800's

    I received my first .22 rifle for my 7th b-day, my first handgun was a Ruger Standard .22 i got for my 8th b-day.
    By the time i was 10 i could fieldstrip an m-14 & m-16 blindfolded.
    That comes from having a dad that was a marine for 20 years(& even worse a DI for 6 of those years).

    I respect guns as just another tool to get a specific job done, no less & no more.

    I personally don't understand people that aren't brought up to serve their country, it just doesn't seem normal to me.
     
  4. Kitrax

    Kitrax Pantaloons are supposed to go where!?!?

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    I'm a city dweller too, and I use my .22 for target practice and general plinking, my 9mm is for home defense/target practice/general carry, and the shotgun I want will replace the 9mm's first job...and will also be used to blow up flying clay disks (clay pigeons). Down the line, I might even go turkey hunting with it...but the wife is against hunting, even though she *loves* turkey meat.... :skeptic:

    My dad has 2 .50Cal black powder rifles that are just for fun, his shotgun is for home defense/clay pigeon shooting, his 30-30 is for hunting...even though he hasn't been in 20+ years, his 2 pistols are for target practise, and is antique .22 rifle is (hopefully) part of my inheritance... :p :rolling:
     
  5. Baronius

    Baronius Mental harmony dispels the darkness ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Excuse me, but how is bringing up in the spirit of serving the country directly related to the use/ownership of guns? Sure, that's one aspect, but definitely not the primary one.

    Maintaining (possibly historical) collection of weapons, guns is fine (I like that), as well as for using it for sport shooting and such stuff (good too). As for collecting them for random shooting and fun, well, that's quite infantile IMO, but to each his own (everyone chooses hobbies on his or her own).

    Apart from the fact it can be used for sport shooting or collections, I consider it an "on-demand" thing, and that can be considered typical in Europe IMO. If you need it for some reason (e.g. job -- in this case it's often mandatory -- but also for any ad hoc reason), you can get one. At the moment, I don't own a gun, but if needed, it wouldn't be hard to get one (even an AK47, illegal or not). But otherwise, why if I don't need it? Of course, I can understand that family traditions can be significant in this respect, i.e. a son of a soldier (e.g. in USA) might be taught that it's natural to have a gun at home (and anyway, as we've discussed in the other thread, US and Europe differs in the respect of gun ownerships at home). On the other hand, I think something is wrong if gun ownership/skills/usage is the primary thing that first occurs to someone when talking about serving the country.
     
  6. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    :yot:but answers questions asked
    Ah , i see where we are having a difference. You asked for why we have guns & listed 2 reasons however my primary reasons are not those.
    It's a marine mentality. The saying is "every marine a rifleman" & is embodies in the riflemans creed.

    The most important award a marine ever wears is his marksmanship badge not his purple hearts, silver or bronze stars, his service strips or any of his other medals.
    None of those bring as much honor to him as that expert rating.

    Oh, just so you know, please don't ever call someone an "ex-marine" it isn't taken well. "Prior-service marine" is fine & "retired marine" for those with 20+years service are acceptable if you don't want to use just plain "marine"
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2008
  7. Baronius

    Baronius Mental harmony dispels the darkness ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    What I implied is that gun usage/skills is just a rather material, physical part of training when bringing up & teaching someone to serve the homeland & country. The primary thing is the mental education*; more precisely, I don't find it a requirement to have constant skills with guns for someone who wants to be a patriot: the importance of defending & serving the homeland first has to come from heart, and only then by gun or even pure fists. In other words, someone can still be ready to serve his or her homeland without possessing guns, if he/she is ready to defend the country when there is a need.

    *Of course, I don't doubt that both of them (physical, mental) is present in families such as yours.

    [By the way, I don't find this discussion off-topic; we're also analyzing why and how people support or refuse restrictive gun control, and military environment/education can seriously influence the attitude of people.]
     
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  8. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    I agree with your assessment that there are many ways to serve your country, in fact, i think those with special skills or knowledge can provide service via those means rather than thru military service.
    However, i do think that everyone should serve their country in some way for 4-6 years. If we could get even 50% of the country to do this we could accomplish anything.
     
  9. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    martaug, are you feeling OK? This is EXACTLY what Obama is proposing. That everyone should do a civil duty to the country. Not necessarily through the military, but serve in some capacity either on a local, state or national level. Although I believe he said it only had to be for 2 years, other than that your statements are strikingly similar.
     
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  10. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    It is just in the particulars that we differ. You know the old saying " the devil is in the details"
    We are polar opposites on so many others though(ANWR drilling, nuclear energy, giving "tax breaks"(actually a payment) for people who don't pay taxes, etc...)
     
  11. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    ... and was an idea presented by Powell many years ago as 'volunteerism.'
     
  12. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    And even further, think about what the US was able to accomplish in the 40's & 50's because most of america worked together to get things done
     
  13. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    I apologize if this resurrection aggravates anyone, but Chandos stated something so eloquently in another thread that I couldn't help but apply it here, though I doubt seriously that he meant it to be applied to this topic (then again, IIRC, Chandos is a self-proclaimed libertarian, so perhaps I'm wrong.)

    This sums up my feelings perfectly. When it comes to a non-criminal having a gun that he uses for non-criminal purposes, anyone who says "no one needs a gun" can, IMHO, stick it sideways. It is not my place to dictate to others what they "need" and the converse is also true -- it is not the place of anyone in a free society to dictate to fellow non-criminal citizens what they "need" either.

    I bow to Chandos' skill with the written word.
     
  14. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I think you're confusing "needs" with "wants".

    (And in retrospect, I think CTR was as well in the other thread, although that didn't occur to me at the time, mainly because I generally agreed with his point. In the context of his post, the difference between "need" and "want", while still relevant, is not IMO as significant as it is with respect to gun control.)
     
  15. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I'm not really sure how it applies here. You could say the same thing about anything. If my individual value judgement is that I need a nuclear bomb for safety (or in case someone really gets on my bad side - of course I won't say this out loud), should no one be able to tell me different? After all, I'd never need to actually do anything with it, illegal or not. I think that just letting the neighbours know that I have one would be quite enough. I could also simply drop subtle hints in discussions that don't go my way about my little a-bomb. Nothing illegal there.

    And if someone broke into my house, stole my portable nuke and used it on a shopping mall, well, that'd be their own (bad) individual value judgement and I shouldn't be responsible for that.

    Right? No? But... but...
     
  16. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    Fair enough -- I can understand the government, acting as the voice of the people, telling people that there are some guns and weapons that there is just no logical reason for a law abiding citizen to have -- I don't think I've ever said I advocate totally unrestricted gun controls -- for example, armour piercing bullets -- what possible legal reason would a person have for owning such a thing? But, I have heard people say things to people like Kitrax like "I don't see why you need a handgun." Well, my answer is that he has a non-criminal use for it (it's his hobby) and that what they think he "needs" or doesn't "need" isn't relevant -- he wants it, he uses it non-criminally, he follows rules for keeping it out of the hands of criminals, so what's the big deal?

    I just resent the idea of individual people who have different hobbies from me telling me or other law abiding CITIZENS! what we need or don't need -- the government doing it as a whole, balancing the rights of society against the risks, that I can get behind, at least to a reasonable degree.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2008
  17. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I'm not against the right to bear arms at all. However, I believe the interpretations by the NRA are a little overboard. That you feel the need to protect your family with a gun is fine -- it is a right. I just don't believe that right automatically should extend to any type of gun. That you "want" a AK-47 (like the one that was used on Halloween) or a Desert Eagle is a step beyond your "needs".

    I would not mind a ban on all assault weapons, and automatic capable weapons. I would further support a licensing program for all pistols -- with a required training program (NRA certified, of course).

    "law abiding criminals" great typo.... :D
     
  18. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Cultural differences, nothing else. Most Europeans really see no need whatsoever for a gun, and the idea of owning one or more for a hobby is mostly felt to be reserved for the rich people with more money than sense who have nothing better to do all day than to shoot away their money. Guns and the related paraphernalia are quite expensive around here. So don't take it the wrong way, because when you hear a European ask what on earth do you need a gun for, it's in sincere wonderment, not to be rude. Though admittedly, those of our members who have been around for a while should understand by now how vastly different general American and European attitudes to guns are.
     
  19. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    T2Bruno, the problem with that isn't the idea (I completely agree), but rather the application. The ban on so-called 'assault weapons' actually banned a lot of non-assault weapons and left some truely horrendous weapons in stores.

    I'd say bans are ok for fully-automatic, maybe semi-automatic weapons, armor-piercing rounds (note, it's the rounds here, not the guns that can fire them), and maybe anything over a certain caliber.
     
  20. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    Don't you have farms there? Farmers use their gun to put down a sick animal in a humane manner, kill predators and to humanely kill an animal that they plan to eat. Don't people hunt in Europe? There are animals we can hunt here, and they taste good. You need a gun to kill them.

    That said, I do agree that there can and should be some limits on these guns and who can have them, but don't come right out and take them from us...
     
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