The Best Sneak Attack

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The rogue only gets 1 sneak attack in the surprise round. I checked. Once mr mage is aware of him, he only gets regular attacks. And toasting a rogue won`t work at highlevel. Some spell involving a will save however works like a charm.
Also think about all the other classes at level 20, vs a rogue at level 20. Sneak attacking a fighter or a barbarian with 250+ hp? Takes alot of sneak attacks to kill those. Especially when there are healing potions involved. Rogues (and bards) have suffered bigtime from the 3ed rules more than any of the other classes. In 2ed each class needed a different amount of XP to level up, I must say that was a better way to balance things than just make all the classes "the same".

 

Well said my man..

 

Mage has stoneskin cast before the battle begins, and its over before it starts. Add fireshield to that, have the mage cast confusion - there is just no way a rogue can compete, and they dont even have hide in plain sight in IWD2 for whatever reason.

 

Yeah. And if you think rogues suffer in 3ed, look at the bards. they are even worse off.

 

I have to disagree here. IMHO, having similar XP per level for each class is a neccessary thing to implement the 3e multiclass system.

While there are things about 2e that I do like, this was not one of them.

I won't argue that rogues and perhaps bards got the short end of the stick in 3e. But I have to say that I was never all that fond of most Thieves in 2e, cuz I disliked how difficult it was to execute a backstab and the general weakness in combat of pure class thieves. 3e rogues seem more useful in general combat, except that their backstabs aren't all that powerful, relatively speaking to the HP totals of higher level targets.

 

I'll agree that rogues are better combatants than 2e thieves. thieves had terrible thaco progression despite levelling faster and could only place one weapon proficiency point into anything. Thats why I never used single class thiefs, my favourite were fighter thieves, who have enough skill points to disarm traps, pick locks and sneak, while actually being able to fight, and being able to land a backstab successfully (seriously, how can you miss a backstab? how can you miss at point blank range when you have all the time in the world to study a victims armor and look for weak points).

In 3e a I dont use rogues because warrior classes make better fighers, clerics and druids get more hitpoints (slightly) and spell casting, and intelligent and dextrous wizards can perform all of a rogues tasks quite well.

 

Proteus, I've found my pure class 3e rogues to be more than decent combatants, when used properly, mostly as archers and sneak attackers, but capable of engaging in melee at need. And because they're rogues, they can be very useful for sneaking around, etc. OTOH, 2e BG2 pureclass thieves are next to useless, except when using a thieving skill or backstabbing. Oh, I suppose you can hid them next to your mage and use a bow, but their Thac0's are, as you properly state, so low, that they're not going to add that much to the combat potential of a party.

OTOH, I found BG2 swashbucklers to be reasonably good combatants, but of course, you have to give up backstabbing. (I always enjoyed playing a swashbuckler in BG2 as the main character.)


From the sounds of so many of the peoples' comments regarding rogues, and playing styles, etc, it sound to me as if there's not much appreciation for stealthy combat tactics. I thoroughly enjoy using stealthy tactics when I play IWD2 or any of the other games. I love sneaking a character or, better yet, 2 around a dungeon to scout out the enemy and sometimes to attack an enemy spellcaster at the very moment that the main body of my party comes charging onto the scene. Oh, I suppose that one could use a lot of invisibility spells to do that same thing, but it doesn't feel the same to me. I love the concept of a stealthy character or two tip-toeing into the heart of the enemy and striking at the enemy's weakest point at a critical moment.

I'd say that this is more of an IWD2 thing than a 3e thing. Intelligent (are there any other kind? ) and dextrous wizards can only do rogues tasks because IWD2 doesn't make the rogue things that need doing tough enough, and of course there's the ability to use mirror image to nerf traps as well.

Still, I refuse to use a Wizzy X/rogue 2 for this reason. It's too cheesey. It's too much about knowing exactly how rogue you need and using the cheesey anti-trap tactics that take advantage of weaknesses in the IE system. I prefer to play a more honest rogue. If doing so weakens the combat potential of my party, so be it. The game's easy enough as is. I don't need to use a silly cheesy wizzy x/rogue 2 to cheese my way thru IWD2's too weak traps. It'd be better to use the mod that gets rid of traps altogether and not use any sort of rogue than to use a cheesey wizzy/rogue. I hate these cheesey wizzy/rogues. (end rant.)

 

Yes THAT was another reason why rogues were so bad in IWDII. I still prefer to play a pure rogue though, just because it feels 'right'.

 

Where in the Player's Hand Book does it say that a rouge only gets one sneak attack a round (mind you it'd be hard as you're probably going to have to make a move action in the surprise round)? Under the rouge class for description of sneak attack, it says nothing of the sort. According to the PHB, the rouge gets a sneak attack whenever he flanks his target or negates the target's Dex bonus. Here's the quote from the PHB "If a rouge can catch an opponent when his is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Basically, the rouge's attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rouge flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at the 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rouge levels thereafter. Should the rouge score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 ft. A rouge can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

With a sap (blackjack) or unarmed strike, a rouge can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the unusual -4 penalty, because she must make optimal use of her weapon in order to execute a sneak attack.

A rouge can only sneak attack living creatures with discernible anatomies-undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rouge must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rouge cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.""If a rouge can catch an opponent when his is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Basically, the rouge's attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rouge flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at the 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rouge levels thereafter. Should the rouge score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 ft. A rouge can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

With a sap (blackjack) or unarmed strike, a rouge can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the unusual -4 penalty, because she must make optimal use of her weapon in order to execute a sneak attack.

A rouge can only sneak attack living creatures with discernible anatomies-undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rouge must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rouge cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking a creature whose vitals are beyond reach." Page 50

Hence, a rouge with a decent bluff modifier can simply feint every attack and catch a mage flat-footed every round. Feint is the best friend of any 3.0 or 3.5 character with a good bluff modifier.

Also your average 20th level NPC human Fighter (Barbarians smoke rouges because of improved uncanny dodge) only has 154 hp (19*5.5+10+40) with a stat line of Str 20 (26 +6 belt of giant's strength), Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. A 20th level NPC human rouge wields a +3 light weapon (short sword for the example) dealing 3.5+4 (12 Str)+30.5 points of damage. A rouge on average deals 127 points of damage per round if it can hit with all three attacks (average rouge as an attack modifier of +26/+21/+16, moving to +28/+23/+18 for flanking and a rouge who's focused on sneak attack probably has weapon focus moving +29/+24/+19 against the NPC fighter's 33 AC with a shield). Anyway, however, if you really want a "uber sneak attacker", just switch the rouge over to the assassin prestige class and pick up death attack. Almost no mage is going have the Fort save to withstand that attack. Mage begone in one hit. Straight rouges at high levels are better for getting all that tasty exp left in high level traps and for communication because they have 8 skill points a level + Int modifier with access to bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and sense motive. That they have access to decipher script, listen, spot, and use magic device only makes them more useful. At high levels, a rouge with a good use magic device can use just about any item they'll run into, regardless of whether they should be able to use it. Nothing like a rouge popping out of the shadows, use a scroll of finger of death and then running away.

A 20th level NPC barbarian would have 155 hp (19*6.5+12+20), the barbarian's need of higher dexterity means lower consitution (13 instead of 14).

[ April 17, 2007, 18:27: Message edited by: Ilmater's Suffering ]

 

How does that all help our poor IWD2 rogue?

Perhaps your comparison above is useless even in generic 3e terms, because in 3e terms the barbarian and rogue need not be directly opposed, but will likely form part of groups. Thus the question is, who is more useful, the rogue, or the barbarian? I could do without a rogue, but I couldnt do without a frontline fighter.

 

Ok, what *would* make 3e/IWD2 rogues more useful?

A. Tougher traps, thus forcing them to be used out of a party's self-defense?

B. More sneak attack dice?

C. Allow sneak attacking to use a 2e-like multiplier system?

D. Any other suggestions?

 

Less hp per level would do the trick. And as you said, make traps tougher.

Ohh and Ilmater. About the sneak attack per round. I read on the wizards page that you only get 1 per round per oponent. There was some questions about it over there. Something involving 2 weapon fighting and sneak attack. PHB was aparantly abit unclear on the subject, but the answer the player got was clear. Once the enemy is aware of you (after 1 senak attack) you only get regular damage. No idea why its like that though. Sneak attack in general is a pretty moronic attack really. How come only rogues can do it? I mean all it takes to do it is to discern a creatures anatomy. All classes should be able to do it, especially the fighting classes. Anyone notice that its all about cash, stats and damage per round in roleplaying games now adays? It just struck me. Doesn`t feel like roleplaying anymore. More like....some playstation rpg or something (talking about the pen and paper here).

 

But in terms of IWD2, the monsters all have their pre-set HP values, so I'm not sure that fewer HP per level is really the problem here. Short of going thru EVERY monster in the game and reducing their # of HP, there's not much value in "reducing the number of HP".

Tougher traps would certainly increase the overall value of rogues, although it wouldn't do diddly to make them better in combat.

I think that about the best thing that could be done to make rogues nastier in IWD2 combat would be to find a way to strengthen the Sneak attack, either by going to a multiplier system or adding more sneak attack dice. Unfortunately, either solution would require some DLL coding, like Mindchild has done for other things.


As for why can only rogues do sneak attacks... Class differentiation. Why can't all classes have in-class access (i.e. 1 SP) to all talking skills? Why can't any paladins or barbarians or rangers gain weapon specialization? And so on and so on... Class differentiation.

 

Definitely agreed! Anyone who says that D&D needs to be as realistic as possible is playing the wrong game! It just needs to be fair and interesting.

 

Besides, if you want a talking fighter, it's not all that hard. Start as a rogue, have a decent INT (~10, maybe 12), take as many points in the talking skills as possible, perhaps put the extra into Hide, then take about 3-4 fighter levels, than take a 2nd rogue level and max out the talking skills again, then go fighter the rest of the way. You won't have a powergaming powerhouse, but you can end up with an interesting tank that can talk, and maybe be decently stealthy, if you have a decent DEX (~14) and wear chain. And a little bit of sneak attack (which might argue in favor of taking a 3rd rogue level for the 2nd SA d6) and rogue evasion. Not a bad character.


The talker in my current party, the party I'm using to test my mod, was built to the above design and she's pretty amusing. I used the FEMALE_FIGHTER_4 voiceset for her, which isn't exactly a battle-hardened warrior's voice, but does make her rather amusing to play. In fact, writing out this post has convinced me to take a 3rd rogue level because Theena does get the occasional sneak attack in some melees and she does use stealthy reasonably regularly.

 

Realistic is one thing. Thats a relative term in fantasy\roleplaying for sure. But its kind of lame that every rogue in, lets pick the forgotten realms setting as an example, the "world" at level 2 aparantly has so good reflexes that he gets the evasion. Now a rogue covers quite abit of characters really. 20 000 rogues in the forgotten realms setting? just to pick a number. Even a huge fat pickpocket thief has quick enough reflexes to get the evasion feat. Its kind of like one does not have any say in what char you play. Except for a feat at every 3rd level and the skillpoints (wich I heard will be removed in 4ed by the way). I know this is off topic by the way. Would be more fun if you didn`t get any class feats at all in my opinion. But rather a huge list of rogue-like feats to pick from instead, like bonus feats. That way you could at least play something that felt unique, or something that left you with a feeling of having created a character and not just written down stuff from the rogue table in the PHB. It would still preserve the "classes" that way too. But it would add alot more freedom really. Easy way to add the backstab ability too. Chose the classic backstab, or the new sneak attack.

 

Rawgrim, if there were no classes, then it wouldn't be D&D. Simple as that.

And BTW, that "huge fat pickpocket thief" isn't going to be evading many things unless he has a really good DEX. If he has a DEX that's in keeping with that character description, he's a) going to have a rather average to low DEX, b) going to be a rather poor pickpocket, due to a low DEX, and is going to fail to evade much of anything due to a low DEX and low Reflex save.


A classless game system might be interesting, but it isn't D&D.

 

I guess if they upped the sneak attack damage and perhaps another little bonus, that would give rogues a better chance in 3e. Although there's probably not much they can do against barbarians like you said.

Like Rawgrim said, a large amount of only 'rogue' feats would help a lot and perhaps give them the edge..

 

What I meant was : more freedom in class feats. So you don`t have to get feats in two weapon fighting or bow as a ranger, if you don`t want your ranger to have that. Add those to a list of ranger bonus feats instead. Get animal companion as a feat, if you want it as well, and not have it forced on you, so to speak. The class will still be Ranger anyway. The difference is that you get to pick what he is good at, and not the table in PHB wich says every ranger in the world has an animal companion. Things like this would make the classes more balanced really. You get to tailor make your rogue instead of just getting stuff. That way one can`t complain about the classes not being unbalanced as well. Just an idea.

 

"Where in the Player's Hand Book does it say that a rouge only gets one sneak attack a round (mind you it'd be hard as you're probably going to have to make a move action in the surprise round)?" -Ilmater's Suffering

Becose you can only do a single Partial action in Suprise attack round. In short you get to make a SINGLE attack, and not a full attack (full round action). However, the enemy (ezard?) is still faltfooted until hes first action, thus if you go before him in initiative order, he will still be flatfooted, and thus you can get in a full round of attacks with sneak attack.

This is all in regard to D&D 3.0/3.5 and not to IWD2 of corse.

Rawgrim: I agree that the system you mention would be very interesting and I have been attempting to make some rules on this and similar ideas myself (as houserules). Nothing finished enough yet to be used though.


Also, anyone ever tried to play with 2 rogues ? Obviouslly I don't think IWD2 is the right game to try this, but in P&P or ToEE (That have sneak attacking alot better implemented) you can really wreak havoc with two rogues, sneak in and gank a poor sorcerer or even cleric before he gets a single spell of. And then run over and flank the next spellcaster while your warriors storm in from the other side of the room.

Great fun.