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Templates

Discussion in 'BG2: Shadows of Amn (Classic)' started by TGM, Sep 23, 2001.

  1. TGM Gems: 5/31
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    Lamia will be in the addo-on download. She can be found in the Graveyard district.
     
  2. KangaxxJR Gems: 1/31
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    [​IMG] I just found this discussion and am very interested in contributing to the development of the new templates. I am still reading through, and hope it is not too late to add ideas. I will be back on Friday, must sleep now.

    Oh yeah, and because I am very concerned..

    TGM, STOP CRIPPLING THE TEMPLATE CHARACTERS!!! Though I agree with you on some things, I DO NOT agree when it comes to spells and ability adjustments, and how often you can cast them. NO MORE CRIPPLING! You! I want a POWERFUL LICH. uh..

    Too tired to argue right now, be back soon.

    KangaxxJR
     
  3. TGM Gems: 5/31
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    [​IMG] No, I do not want to argue either, that is not what I would do now, and there had been enough arguing about this topic days before, now we will sit down, and wait the results.
    And listen closely: I don't want to make thost templates WEAK. Is this so hard to see? You know, I'm not a masochist, nor a sadist type of person, I just love the challange in everything. For example in games. If something goes too easy for me, I get bored very soon, and press quit. I do not like it, when things come easy, I think one must fight for the greater prizes and not just achieve them for free. I do not want to get a weak template, because in that case I wouldn't even download the stuff. But I hate situations, where things just go too easy. Just imagine: how long will, for example Irenicus last against a Dragon with resistances? Poor miserable Jon has not even a single Lower Resist, such thing is not in his script. So he will suffer, and so this way the main boss of SoA will be nothing more then a short laugh for everybody. That is what I wouldn't like.
    But right, give them power, but in that case the requirements should be greter. No, this is also wrong, some people won't like this either, because they just would like to keep some powerful staff for their party.
    Believe me, I'm not the EVIL, that is trying to steal peoples fun, I just try to make things equal, so the game's outstanding atmosphere and its balance won't be disrupted.

    TGM
     
  4. KangaxxJR Gems: 1/31
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    [​IMG] Hey TGM, apologies for my angry assault on you. I guess I was a little scared I was too late, you actually didn't do anything wrong. There should be disadvantages, and you are right about the game getting boring fast if your guys are too strong.

    Well guys, I hope I am not too late to add some ideas, I can only hope that Lavir gets to see this and you all can help decide if this can help. Parameters not mentioned below means I am happy with them on the current update list from Lavir, and not so much that the following parameters are to completely replace the existing templates. They are more like adds and removes.


    FIRST: LICH
    I am mainly concerned about this character because I wanna-be a Lich. hehe

    OK, I am not happy about losing the Staff of Magi AND the Ring of Gaxx, but if that is going to be the case for balance, then what you get so far doesn't seem to be enough.

    So please consider these conditions.


    DISADVANTAGES:

    1.) -75% Resistance to ACID and FIRE.
    2.) -5 to STR and DEX, -2 to CON.
    3.) Cannot be HASTED or SLOWED.
    4.) Lich Movement should be SLOW, but NOT THAT SLOW!
    5.) Reputation Maximum of 13.
    6.) Casting Lvl. 9 Spells and up more than 5 times consecutively in a row will have a 15% chance of a FIREBALL exploding directly on the Lich. (15D6 damage, save allowed). Or if preferred, save vs. spell instead of the 15% chance.
    6b.) If Lich takes damage from an enemy or spell before reaching the 5th casting of a Level 9+ spell that would normally trigger the fireball risk, the counter is instead reset back to 0.
    6c.) When Lich reaches Level 20, his chance of exploding is lowered to 10% (or save with a +2 bonus). FIREBALL damage increases to 20D6.
    6d.) When Lich reaches Level 30, his chance of exploding is lowered to 5% (or save with a +4 bonus). FIREBALL damage increases to 25D6.


    REASONING BEHIND DISADVANTAGES:

    1.) The Lich needs a major disadvantage, and the spell PROTECTION FROM ENERGY makes it all to easy for the Lich to escape this weakness. I think ACID should be added to his weakness since it is a typical weakness of the Undead.

    2.)I believe STR and DEX should suffer major penalties, but -5 to Constitution?! That would remove too many hit points, making him an easy kill, especially if less than 60 HP! Instead, how about -2 to CON. I think that is more fair.

    3.) Since the Lich is supposed to be sloth-like to begin with, he shouldn't be able to remedy that with HASTE, nor should he be made even slower!

    4.) If the Lich is too slow, the game will be a MAJOR DRAG! And just piss players off! I think the walking speed of a Skeleton Warrior (the monster, not the alternative template character) is already very slow, any slower than that is unacceptable.

    5.) I agree with the -3 to reputation, but I think the maximum reputation limit should be increased to 13 instead of 10, so players who like listening to NPC's complain or praise can have that. Plus a 10 rep is harsh!

    6.)I don't know if this can actually be applied, but it would surely help tone down a Lich who abuses his power. The casting speed is insane, we can describe this disdvantage as an energy surge from the continual manipulation of high level magic. If the Lich casts more than five Level 9+ spells in a row, he has a chance of harming himself as described above. Since he is very vulnerable to fire, I thought the FIREBALL would do just fine.

    6b.) To be fair to the Lich, if he is harmed in the middle of his power-crazed castings before his 5th, the surge build up is lost and starts back at 0, giving the Lich a chance to recover. Call it a loss of concentration that ends his energy build-up. If possible, SPECIAL ABILITIES (that I am going to list below) should not contribute to this surge build up.

    6c-d.) As the Lich progressively gets higher in level, he should be more experienced and prepared to deal with this little weakness, thus the lesser chance of the accident happening. However, the higher the level, the more potent the energy surges, thus possible damage taken is directly increased.


    ADVANTAGES: (YAY!)

    1.) +50% COLD Resistance, instead of immunity.
    2.) +35% MAGIC Resistance.
    3.) +20% PHYSICAL Resistance, None for CRUSHING damage though.
    4.) Have innate SPECIAL ABILITIES that become available as the LICH goes up in level.

    Abilities List:

    (Mind Melt): (Feeblemind spell, but with -6 save penalty, same effects as Feeblemind occur when save fails as well as target going unconcious for 1D4 rounds). Becomes available at Level 13, +1 use per 3 levels, (MAX: 4)

    (Shadow Door): Available at Level 14, +1 per 2 levels, (MAX: 6)

    (Unholy Word): Available at Level 15, +1 per 4 levels, (MAX: 2)

    (Symbol: Fear): Available at Level 16, +1 per 3 levels, (MAX: 4)

    (Power Word: Kill): Available at Level 17, +1 per 2 levels, (MAX: 12) YES, 12!

    (Improved Slay Living): (Slay Living spell, but with a -6 save penalty or die and 5D6 +1 damage per level of caster). Lich must successfully touch the victim anyways for any of these conditions to take place. Available at Level 18, +1 per 3 levels, (MAX: 4)

    (Chain Contingency): Available at Level 19, (MAX: 1)

    (Imprisonment): (NO LICH CAN LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT!) Available at Level 20, +1 per 4 levels, (MAX: 2)


    REASONING BEHIND ADVANTAGES:

    1.) The Lich is already powerful enough being immune to mind and polymorph spells, immunity to COLD and ELECTRICITY is almost too good. I think it would be better for the Lich to have a 50% resistance to COLD instead of being completely immune to it. I am fine with immunity to ELECTRICITY though.

    2.) He is a magical being after all, and without the Staff of Magi and Ring of Gaxx (MY RING!), having no magic resistance at all is unacceptable for such a superior being. I would like to see a 35% MAGIC resistance added so that it is just enough to deflect the lesser spells, yet low enough for the higher spells to cause considerable damage. Sound reasonable?

    3.)Again, think of it, we gave up the Staff of Magi and Ring of Gaxx for this!! Bring up the PHYSICAL resistance to at least 20% from 15%. No resistance however for CRUSHING, I like that idea.

    4.) This is what being a Child of Bhaal is all about, having innate special abilities to wreak chaos and destruction on your foes. I think that the abilities listed above are more than enough to make the game much more exciting and fun. I think FEEBLEMIND is a commonly overlooked spell because of the crappy save penalty and should be brought back into usefulness with its more evolved, save un-friendly version, "Mind Melt". In addition to degenerating the mind, the target also goes unconcious for 1D4 rounds just from the tremendous strain to the mind. SHADOW DOOR is always a cool escape spell for the "slower" mages. HOLY WORD is appropriate for an evil Lich. SYMBOL: FEAR is always a favorite of Liches. POWERWORD: KILL, ok some of you may be thrown back by my recommendation for a maximum of 12 castings, but how often are you going to run into enemies with over 60 HPs? Especially in ToB, this is more of a convenience spell for the Lich so that he may quickly eradicate any lesser enemies, and with the quick casting, it would just be like Irenicus popping those Cowled Wizards like popcorn! That is RAW POWER! AHH!! I thought IMPROVED SLAY LIVING would be a good way to revive the much avoided Priest spell, with the -6 penalty to instantly kill and the increased damage only if the Lich successfully hit makes this a more useful spell. CHAIN CONTINGENCY should be given, all Liches have it and so should you. IMPRISONMENT because it is one of the coolest spells, besides, you aren't going to imprison enemies that have goodies, good for banishing any annoying land animals and thugs.


    Well, I am finally done with my conditions for the LICH, I will post the VAMPIRE one soon. Appreciate your patience, sorry if I made this complicated, I would attempt to do something like this if I had the tools. Does anyone know how I can get started? Anyways, what do you guys think?


    Kangaxx JR
    -----------------------------------------

    Hi, I'm Back! Since you play as a Child of Bhaal, I was hoping that a transformation into a Vampire should be more rewarding, and should be superior to a regular Vampire in many ways, but not without its cons:

    GREATER VAMPIRE:

    I have to congratulate you on the requirements to become a Vampire, given the current parameters, they are reasonable. But maybe after reading the following, we might need to add a little more to the list of requirements:

    -The Book of Kaza
    -Shadow Dragon Scales
    -Cloak of the Stars


    DISADVANTAGES: (bad first, justifies the good)

    1.) -50% FIRE and ACID Resistance.
    2.) Receives 4x damage from PIERCING weapons.
    3.) Cannot receive any FIRE resistance bonuses from scrolls, spells, rings, and amulets. (since vampires can't use weapons or armor, this is has been taken care of).
    4.) -4 to HIT vs. ELEMENTALS and GOLEMS, and +4 to be HIT by ELEMENTALS and GOLEMS.
    5.) *Daylight/Death Factor changes (I think not being able to function during daylight hours is too critical of a disadvantage, I propose this instead:

    When the GREATER VAMPIRE tries to operate during daylight hours, he/she must adhere to the following conditions-- (instead of downright disintegrating)

    "The Pain Conditions"
    -SLOWED (1/4 normal speed)
    -BLINDED (usual -4 penalty to hit, -4 armor class penalty.
    -MALISONED (additional -4 to all saving throws)
    -LOSE ALL RESISTANCES (MAGIC, ELECTRICITY, COLD = 0%)
    -LOSE REGENERATION ABILITY (cannot heal while there is sunlight)
    -Receives 1D4 FIRE damage every 5 rounds. Additionally there should be a fire sprite animation always playing on the Vampire as he/she strolls through the daylight as if being constantly burned.
    -Save vs Spell with a +2 bonus every turn or be CONFUSED for 1D4 rounds.


    These conditions can at least make it possible to complete quests that require being around during the daytime hours.

    Also, these conditions can either be naturally occuring circumstances when the GREATER VAMPIRE ventures out during daylight hours, OR he/she can procure a "Cloak of the Gargoyles" (needs to be made up) that will set forth these conditions, but must be equipped during the day or the original conditions would apply. 3 rounds out in the sun and you disintegrate!

    "Cloak of the Gargoyles" should be sold by Lamia at the Graveyard District.


    REASONING BEHIND DISADVANTAGES:

    1.) Like the LICH, all Undead should have a weakness to FIRE and ACID, except maybe the ethereal undead. :)

    2.) Just to help balance the character out and add to the weakness scale, and also the fact that VAMPIRES hate stakes, this should sound reasonable. VAMPIRES need to beware of enemies who wield PIERCING weapons!

    3.) The VAMPIRES greatest threat will always be FIRE in this case, and preventing the template from escaping this weakness through spells, scrolls, items, makes this character too strong. VAMPIRES now have something to be afraid of.

    4.) Magically animated creatures like GOLEMS and ELEMENTALS should prove to be a problem for the GREATER VAMPIRE. He/She who preys on the living, will find it difficult to tame the creatures of the lower planes.

    5.) I just think it is way too harsh to have a player not be able to play during the Daytime hours at all, but I understand that there needs to be a major disadvantage to being a VAMPIRE, so I thought "The Pain Conditions" mentioned above could be more suitable yet unforgiving at the same time. If possible, perhaps there can be an item, like "Cloak of the Gargoyles" (made up) that can make it possible to tread through the day but under "The Pain Conditions" rather than downright death in 3 rounds!


    ADVANTAGES: (YAY!!)

    0.) +5 AC, but -3 vs. PIERCING.
    1.) +25% COLD and ELECTRICITY resistance.
    2.) +30% MAGIC resistance.
    3.) Regenerate 2 HP every 6 seconds.
    4.) Immune to all MIND SPELLS (charm, domination, etc.), except CONFUSION. Not affected by Priest spell, CHAOTIC COMMANDS.
    5.) Summon Greater Ghoul, not at will however (instead of a wolf!)
    6.) +2 to all saving throws at night.
    7.) LEVEL DRAIN ATTACKS (with fist):

    Begin with 2 Level Drain.
    @ LVL 10, 2 Level Drain, 1 Constitution Drain.
    @ LVL 15, 3 Level Drain, 1 Constitution Drain.
    @ LVL 20, 4 Level Drain, 2 Constitution Drain.
    @ LVL 25, 5 Level Drain, 2 Constitution Drain.
    @ LVL 30, 6 Level Drain, 3 Constitution Drain. (This is about how much Bodhi drains in the final battle with her)

    8.) SPECIAL ABILITIES >8D (A must for a Child of Bhaal!)

    LEVEL 5: (Blur): +1 per 2 levels, max 3.
    LEVEL 6: (Cause Fear): (HORROR spell, but save vs. spell with a -4 penalty, affects 20 ft. radius instead of 15 ft), +1 per 3 levels, max 3.
    LEVEL 7: (Infest): (CONTAGION spell, but save vs. spell with a -4 penalty), +1 per 3 levels, max 6.
    LEVEL 9: (Life Drain): (VAMPIRIC TOUCH spell, but with a maximum gain of 12D6 hit points from target for a 24th-level caster and a casting time of 1), +1 per 3 levels, max 3.
    LEVEL 14: (Accelerate Decay): (DOLOROUS DECAY Priest spell, but with a -6 save vs. poison penalty, slowed for 6 rounds, and a total of 60 points of damage inflicted at the end of the spell. Save to avoid any damage, but still slowed for 3 rounds), +1 per 4 levels, max 3.
    LEVEL 15: (Undead Unity): (DEFENSIVE HARMONY Priest spell, but with a +3 bonus to AC that only affects characters of EVIL ALIGNMENT), +1 per 4 levels, max 3.
    LEVEL 16: (Undead Song): (CONTROL UNDEAD spell, but with a -4 save vs. spell for undead creatures with more than 4 HD, 3 HD or less are automatically controlled, and spell affects a 20 ft. radius originating from the caster, all affected must save, instead of area of effect chosen by caster with CONTROL UNDEAD and its limited 1-4 creatures that can be affected), +1 per 4 levels, max 2.
    LEVEL 17: (Flesh to Stone): +1 per 3 levels, max 6. YES 6!
    LEVEL 18: (Shapechange): +1 per 4 levels, max 2.
    LEVEL 19: (Lost Soul): (FINGER OF DEATH spell, but with a -4 save vs. spell penalty, and a casting time of 2), +1 per 3 levels, max 8. YES, thats right, 8!
    LEVEL 20: (Maze): +1 per 4 levels, max 6.


    REASONING BEHIND ADVANTAGES:

    0.) +6 was too much, +4 kinda wimpy, +5 AC sounds just right! The natural -3 AC penalty to PIERCING should concern the most powerful of VAMPIRES :).

    1.) I think 5% more to 20% is fair, you are Child of Bhaal after all!

    2.) Again, Child of Bhaal, but since we did not have to sacrifice anything TOO STRONG, I can let this one slip.

    3.) 1 HP regeneration every 4 seconds is too slow. 2 HP every 6 seconds is more appropriate, besides, you can't regenerate during the daytime anyways.

    4.) CONFUSION should be the major weakness of this template, having the GREATER VAMPIRE turn against his comrades in these grim cases can be disastrous! :) But aside from that spell, the VAMPIRE should be immune to all other mind spells.

    5.) Lets face it, the wolf is useless, being able to summon wolves at will doesn't make sense, if there is going to be a free summoning ability, it should be the Greater Ghoul, a decent minion, but only being able to summon 1-2, three times a day is good enough.

    6.) The dark is the VAMPIRE'S friend, the darkness empowers evil, so along with being the Child of Bhaal and all, this +2 to all saving throws during the night period is essential!

    7.)2 LEVEL DRAIN is simply WAYY TOO LOW. But I would be happy with that if you can progressively get stronger at drain attacks as listed above. Plus it gives you something to look forward to as you progress in ToB.

    8.)Special abilities should be the greatest gift for tranforming into a given template, that is why I think the abilities I listed can make the game VERY FUN! BLUR is a decent defense and just plain looks cool. HORROR and CONTAGION are never used because of the crappy saves, that is why I hope these new versions "Cause Fear" and "Infest" will help revive the use of these awesome spells. VAMPIRIC TOUCH became useless almost as soon as BG2 began, so hopefully the new "Life Drain" version with the greater chance of damage (12D6) and short casting time will restore its utility. Though I am suggesting FLESH TO STONE being available for use 6 times per resting period, think about how often you'll face monsters with goodies, you would only be using it to eradicate annoying pests. "Lost Soul", the new FINGER OF DEATH, is there for power reasons. MUAHAHAH!! As for SHAPESHIFT, this is only suggested because VAMPIRES are naturally charismatic and adept at deception, and conveniently allows VAMPIRES to fight GOLEMS and ELEMENTALS without the -4 penalty if they wish. Besides, this ain't no ordinary VAMPIRE, its a GREATER VAMPIRE.

    Boy, I'm tired now. Friend wants me to buy beer for his party, gotta go now! So tell me what you think people, I want to see the absolute best templates made with our teamwork!


    -Kangaxx JR

    [This message has been edited by KangaxxJR (edited September 29, 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by KangaxxJR (edited September 29, 2001).]
     
  5. TGM Gems: 5/31
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    [​IMG] Hi there KangaxxJR.

    Whoa, you got a bunch of new ideas, and many of them sounds good. However, the patch for the "ultimate" templates will come out in a day or so, I hope you have still the chance with your ideas.

    Anyway, let me just walk them through, and examine them:

    Lich:
    ADVANTAGES:
    -the 50 % resistances to cold seems good, but do not forget: Liches ARE immune to cold.;
    -the 35% magic resistance is acceptable, but I would offer a more exciteing fashion for it - let the magic resistance ability of the Lich build up in time, just like at the Monk class. Perhaps 3%/every two levels of experience;
    -the physical resistances are ok, I think. About the crushing - this only works on Skeletons. They are just bones, but a Lich in many cases HAS a physical body, that is not vulnerable to blunt weapons;

    -about the innate abilities:
    huhh..:)
    consider the folowing - many of the abilities that you offered WILL be available to the Lich in form of spells. He/she will have an immense amount of spell slots, there will be a lot of space for all kind of spells. In this case many of the abilities seem a bit useless. However, that Mind Melt sounds great! This one should be added, it truly fits a Lich, who has high psyhical abilities. But a -4 modifier to save vs. spell is enough I think, and it should be added at 15. level with a +1/every 5 level. The Shadow door, the Symbol fear and Power word:Kill abilities will be there as spells, why add these on innate as well? No need for them. The Unholy word is more fitting to a Death Knight, but this is only my opinion. The Improved Slay Living...well, there ARE spells, and abilities that are better for a Lich, I mean, this one is more suitable to the Fiend template, don't you think? An additional C.Contingency as an innate skill seems a good idea! This should be added at lower level, but the amount of this shouldn't grow as the Lich gets more experienced.
    Once again about these skills you offered: I think the advantages of a Lich are in its spell casting abilities, which truly are INSANE. Believe me, with a FEW innate added, this template will ROCK, so there is no need for additional abilities, which are not-that-fitting.

    DISADVANTAGES:
    -those 75%- seems a bit harsh, hey:);
    -the stat. modifiers you advised are ok, I think;
    -actually, a Lich CAN be slowed. I see nothing that could outrule HASTE/SLOW on a Lich. One of the Liches in the game also uses Improved Haste on himself(the one you face in Edwin's quest). This thing is already used at the Skeleton Warrior, which is slow, but not that slow as a Lich;
    -The reputation of a Lich shouldn't increase above "Average". Liches aren't popular.;
    -but that Fireball is a perfect idea, congratulations on this one! It would make the Lich to use his armada of spells with caution. However it could be a BIT more strict - the Lich should risk the explosion after every third 9. level spell. 5 is too many, one can easily put a lower one between those, and so avoiding the risks;

    I will come back with the Vampire a bit later.

    Hi, I'm back.
    Now about the Vampire:

    DISADVANTAGES:
    -the piercing extra damage is some GREAT stuff, that should be added! A really good idea.;
    -however, Vampires are NOT vulnerable to fire - they are vulnerable to LIGHT. And in this case the fire resistance should not be lowered.;
    -I do not really understand the thoughts behind the THACO modifiers vs. Golems/Elementals. What is that actually, and why?
    -Now here comes the interesting part of your ideas. You suggested a whole different solution to the "sunlight-problem" of a Vamp. First of all, we must see, that even "greater Vampires" - like Bodhi are vulnerable to light, and they WILL perish under the Sun. This one is essential to the Vampire template, I think. Let me just continue your thoughts about this one! I will use this Cloak of the Gargoyle of yours to make things more interesting. At start, the Vampire will have the disadvantage of the daylight, but in a bit less deadly method:(the first round:2d6, the second:4d6, the third 6d6, the fourth 8d6, and in the fifth desintegrated.)However, some other penalties should be given, using your suggestions. When in daylight, tha Vampire:
    -will be Malisoned(-4 to saving throws);
    -will lose all its resistances;
    -will lose its regeneration ability;

    This seems very DEADLY and negative, but hey! Here comes the trick! There will be that Cloak of Gargoyles at Lamia. Now then. If you would purchase this cloak(heavy prices and some item requirements should be added) you will be freed from many "daylight penalties". For example, by using this cloak in the daylight:
    -you won't lose the resistances and the regeneration ability;
    -you won't be malisoned;
    -and the pain-sequence should be modified as well:1d4 in the first 2 rounds, 2d4 in the 3-4. rounds, 4d4 in the 5-6.rounds, 8d4 in the 7-8.rounds, 15d4 in every 2 rounds thereafter, without the Desintegration)
    now, by this method, things should be quite interesting, because in 10 rounds, you will be able to fight, run, talk, do some quests, and if things turn a bit warm for you, you could always hide in one of the houses or other dark places, to avoid death. What do you think?

    ADVANTAGES:
    -the cold and electricity resistances are ok;
    -hmph, some magic resistance should be added as well, but no more than 15-20%;
    -the 2 HP/6 seconds sounds good;
    -the Vampire template is already immune to mind affecting spells;
    -the +2 to all saving throws at night is very good, add it;
    -but do not add summon Ghouls. The Vampire has not the ability to summon undead, he/she can summon wolves. They seem a bit weaker, yes, but that is in the Vampires repertoire. However, they should be no less than Winter Wolves or Vampiric wolves. They ARE good. V.Wolves can only be hit by magical weapons, and winter wolves have the ice-breath ability, which is a good thing too.;
    -and now, here comes the level drain affect of the fists: what you suggest, is logical enough. There should be an improvement in the level-drain. But your idea will make this template a BIT too powerful around the 30.level. 6 level drain will disable many of the abilities of some bosses, making them useless in combat. (and don't forget: some classes will reach that 30.level VERY fast, for example the thief class.)
    So the level-drain should be modified like this: 2 level and 1 CON at level 10., 2 level and 2 CON at level 15, 3 level and 2 CON at level 20, 3 level and 3 CON at level 25, and 4 level and 3 CON at level 30. If you go abobe these, that will be bad.;
    About the innates:(I will only highlight the ideas I find logical and useful)

    -Blur(only once/day, at level 12.);
    -Horror(only once/day, at level 13.);
    -Shapechange to Vampiric wolf(an improved version of it, with some unique powers as well - the leveldrain ability should be added, the succesful attack of the wolf form should paralyze the victim for 3 rounds, Immunity to cold)
    -about the other abilities you've mentioned...well, I think they would make a Vampire an expert Necromancer. And he/she is not. A Vampire has no special powers in summoning or controling undead, it has power upon other Vampires and humans/demihumans ONLY. HOWEVER! I still think, that a Turn Undead ability SHOULD ba added at level 20., because a Vampire could develop the skill in turning Undead to his/her side;

    What do you think about these?

    TGM

    [This message has been edited by TGM (edited September 29, 2001).]
     
  6. mark the beneficial shah Gems: 5/31
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    question> How do you get the templates to work after they are in the overide folder. I am too lazy to figure it out.
     
  7. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] Read the instructions in the txt files that come with the zip, lazy ass.
     
  8. mark the beneficial shah Gems: 5/31
    Latest gem: Andar


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    what read me files? I can't even open it without a syntax error message.
     
  9. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    [​IMG] Um, did you unzip the archive with a program like WinZip?
     
  10. TGM Gems: 5/31
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    [​IMG] huuuh. I simply can't believe some things are just possible.....:grin: sorry...:grin:
     
  11. Tiamat Gems: 17/31
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    Question: does the template you accept replace the character's actual class, or is it just "elven thief half-demon"?
     
  12. Lavir Gems: 1/31
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    People,

    I know I promised the templates for the end of this week, but due to life imprevist (I have a life, didn't you know? ;) ) I have been out of my city (and away from computers) for three long days of work, so you should wait a little more. But, however, to sweeten the bad new I will tell you that you will have ten new "guardians" to battle for all the new templates you wil add, from the most easy to the most difficult. You will have a thought fight to obtain that Lich template, I assure you ;).

    I've seen the ideas given by KangaaxJr and I found some of them entralling, so I will see what I can to do add some of these.

    I have added also some special abilities for the ToB expansion, starting from level 20, so that they will be still more interesting at higher levels. I will let you wait a bit more, but the patience will be well rewarded, I assure you.

    Then, if someone gently would like to send me that damned "dialog.tlk" of the ToB expansion I would be grateful. I'm only asking a little help, or do you want that the templates will not be compatible with Throne of Bhaal? So, please, someone send the file (one only, lazy people) to lavir@supereva.it.

    This is all.

    Sincerely,
    Lavir
     
  13. KangaxxJR Gems: 1/31
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    [​IMG] Lavir! I am glad that you had the chance to read my ideas, I was wondering if there will still be time to add a few more. I think the Death Knight and Half-Celestial still need work.

    TGM, thanks for the detailed feedback! I will work on another revisement so we can come closer to an agreement.

    LICH:

    ADVANTAGES:

    1.) Immunity to COLD, instead of 50% (hehe)

    I did refer to the AD&D Monstrous Manual, and it did say they have immunity to COLD, but I am concerned that rule will make this character too powerful. It's Lavir's call now!

    2.) MAGIC Resistance MAX=36%. I would be happy with the MAGIC resistance taking effect immediately after transforming, but I suppose the progressive increase could be interesting. Lavir will need to make sure the resistances are added correctly though if someone transforms into the Lich at say, level 15, skipping some levels that already satisfy the requirements. How about these settings: +6% resistance every 3 levels starting at level 11, or +3% resistance every level starting at level 13. The first taking you all the way up to level 26 in order to enjoy the full benefits, while the second will maximize at level 24.

    3.) I still stand at 0% for CRUSHING. In the Monstrous Manual a Lich is described as: “A lich greatly resembles a wight or mummy, being gaunt and skeletal in form. Aside from the rules, don't you think it would help balance the character out more if it had more weaknesses?

    4.)Alright, I can do away with Symbol:Fear, Unholy Word, Imprisonment, and Improved Slay Living, but I still feel the rest are legitimate.

    All the remaining abilities are separated from normal spell casting because 1.) they don't affect the power surge effect 2.) have a 0 (yes, ZERO) casting time so you can bust out spells like a true master would (like Irenicus), and they 3.)distinguish the unique and powerful qualities of a Lich.

    (Mind Melt) I stand at –6 to save because ToB enemies have extremely low saving throws, +1 every 4 levels from level 13, max of 6, casting time 0.

    >
    (Power Word: KILL) Starting at Level 13, +1 every 2 levels, max 12, casting time 0. (at maximum around level 35).

    OR PERHAPS:

    (Power Word: GIBB) HAHAH!! or (Lich Word: KILL)

    Same as "POWER WORD: KILL" but with the exception of instantly killing any creature with 80 HP or below instead of 60 HP. Available at level 16 with (2 uses), +2 every 3 levels, MAX: 8. (Full amount of use at level 25).
    <

    (Shadow Door) A zero casting time for Shadow Door just looks awesome. Start at level 11, +1 per 3 levels, max 6.

    Good call on Chain Contingency needing to start at a lower level. It should become available at around level 13, and not increase any further.


    DISADVANTAGES:

    1.) I was just thinking about how funny it would be for the power surge FIREBALL explosion to turn all your summoned minions against you. I see the problem with how people can easily throwing in a lesser spell to avoid the feedback explosion, so how about this:

    Same conditions of consecutively casting 5 times in a row, but now it includes Level 8 spells and UP? I think 3 in a row is too quick and could really mess you up. Now with Level 8 +, you really need to cast with discretion. ;D

    2.) I suppose you are right on the reputation and haste/slow stuff.

    3.) - 75% ACID and FIRE Resistance is Harsh! :) But you can easily fix that with rings, amulets, and other things. How about this instead, -50% FIRE resistance that can be modified with spells, but ACID resistance should be FIXED at 0% no MATTER WHAT.

    Well, thanks for the feedback man, I really hope this stuff gets into the new template characters.

    Will be back later on the Vampire, Death Knight, and Half-Celestials/Demon. Didn't read much into the Half-Dragons yet, will soon. But let me just add ahead of time, that based on the current Death Knight parameters, I would still keep the Carsomyr +5 over it anytime, that is unless, we add a few more goodies to it. :)


    -Kangaxx JR

    [This message has been edited by KangaxxJR (edited October 01, 2001).]
     
  14. mark the beneficial shah Gems: 5/31
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    Odd, i've never noticed it before, but i don't even have a zip opener. The problems with accepting computers from relatives.....

    I'll give that a shot, and than continue wining later.
     
  15. KangaxxJR Gems: 1/31
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    [​IMG] Lavir and TGM,

    Ok, before I get started again, I need to inform you of a bug with the current Lich. I somehow lost the ability to strike with the paralysis bonus, perhaps between switching weapons (staff, dagger) the icon with the glowing fingers disappeared and now I'm back to using fists. I believe at first both slots were the glowing fingers, then it was the left slot and the right slot blank after equipping and removing a weapon; then they both disappeared when both were equipped and removed with standard weapons.

    Oh yes, and about Power Word, Kill. I just got the spell for my Level 18 Sorcerer, and was a little disappointed that it did not work as effectively as Irenicus's version did. :( If possible, when designing, if you are going to design the new Lich Word, Kill (enhanced "Power Word, Kill"), also have it so that the creature explodes into bits of flesh rather than dropping dead. And its frustrating that this spell says NO SAVING THROW (and HP less than 60) yet Trolls, Undead, etc. wounded well below 60 are still unaffected by it. sigh..

    VAMPIRE:

    Thanks for the positive feedback on some of my VAMPIRE ideas, now lets revise some of the disputed ones.

    DISADVANTAGES:

    1.) OK, about the ELEMENTALS/GOLEM modifiers. The 2nd Edition Rules do not mention this so of course it is rather puzzling, but for balance reasons and general rules about VAMPIRES, I thought this could be used.

    ELEMENTALS are NOT from the Prime Material Plane, thus their life force is very different, almost foreign to VAMPIRES which feed off of the life energy of the living.

    GOLEMS are not even living creatures, they are animated by the magic of powerful wizards. A VAMPIRE's fearsome power over the prime material plane creatures means little to the GOLEMS because they have no life force that could be effectively withdrawn and utilized.

    Therefore I believe that the ELEMENTALS/GOLEMS should receive a +4 to hit VAMPIRES as well as the VAMPIRE receiving a -4 to hit them.

    Wouldn't hurt to also add a -6 to hit modifier vs. DEMONS, and a DEMON receiving a +4 to hit VAMPIRES. This way, there now is more strategy involved with using a VAMPIRE.

    DEVAS, PRINCES, and PLANETARS would also fall into the DEMON PLANE category (Celestial Heaven/Hell Planes) when considering modifiers.

    2.) *Daylight/Death Factor*

    OK, I agree with you on having those "Pain Conditions" removed when wearing the cloak, I see you have much more sympathy to the VAMPIRE now eh? hehe, now don't lose that sympathy just yet.

    Here is an example where disintegrating or repeating heavy damage during the day would make the game unplayable:

    You just finish Spellhold and prepare to board the stolen pirate's ship. You are boarded by the Githyanki who take their time interrogating you and that slick punk over the Silver Blade. Before the dialogue can even finish you are shrivel into a neat pile of dust, WHAT NOW? And maybe you make it past that point, but you arrive at Sahuagin City during the day, and frantically race through the dialogue so you can find shelter, but the kings room is locked, you'll have to kill him. HURRY UP!! This panic and rushed atmosphere would be worse than a Diablo II click-fest!!

    The game would become lame, and I would loath having to take all these precautions just to be a VAMPIRE. You don't have a coffin either, so its do or DIE!

    So how about this:

    Without the "Cloak of the Gargoyles":

    -(BLINDED)(-4 to hit, -4 to AC).
    -(MALISONED)(-4 to all saves).
    -Lose all resistances.
    -Lose regeneration ability.
    -Penalty of -2 to STR and CON.
    -Suffer 1D4+1 FIRE damage every 6 rounds.
    -Always on FIRE (the animation)
    -Save vs. Death +1 bonus every turn, or be CONFUSED for 1D4 rounds.

    I think the BLINDNESS should be applied because the VAMPIRE is literally blind during daylight, and it is a worthwhile penalty. I am aware that many of these factors are going to be difficult to work into the game without bugs, like modifiers not re-adjusting properly and conditions persisting when they should stop, but maybe it can work out! :) Sorry if I am making things to complicated. There were some occasions where after turning back from the SLAYER, my character was still flinching like he was being struck, but without taking any damage, and it made it impossible to cast spells. Another time I casted "Khelbin's Warding Whip" against a mage who turned the spell back and Jan was permanently being dispelled every minute or so. I had to kill him and ressurect him to finally stop it. Anyways, just a tale of my frustrations with BG2, back to what i was saying. :p We all agree on the MALISON, RESISTANCE, and REGENERATION aspects. The penalty to STR and CON is another way of punishing the VAMPIRE for playing during the day, and it should be obvious why it applies. It would properly lower the VAMPIRES hit points and damage potential a bit. The save vs. death, +1 bonus, every turn or be confused for 1D4 rounds, I think is a good way to represent the VAMPIRES absolute dread of light, it has such a strong effect on it that it may become delirious at times and do stupid things (confusion).

    I really think 1D4+1 FIRE damage every 6 rounds is very fair, and would stress the responsibilities of being a VAMPIRE, but not so extreme, like quick death, that it would interfere immensely with gameplay. I am ready to do without the "Cloak of Gargoyles" if it will make things too complicated and leave the conditions for daytime movement at this.

    However if the "Cloak of Gargoyles" system should be added, then the following conditions would still be incurred.

    With the "Cloak of Gargoyles":

    -Can regenerate again, but at +1 HP every 4 seconds.
    -No longer MALISONED.
    -Gains back half of original resistances.
    -BLINDNESS still because of the light.
    -Suffers 2D4+2 damage every turn. (Maximum possible damage taken each turn is 10, while 15 HPs are regenerated each turn) Be cautious when engaging in combat during the day! :)
    -Save vs. Death or be confused is removed.


    ADVANTAGES:

    1.) Agreed, no more than 20% MAGIC resistance.

    2.) Agreed, no Greater Ghouls, but summoning Wolves at WILL, though mentioned in the Monstrous Manual, can be abused by players. Especially if they are vampiric wolves. Shall we keep them in at all?

    3.) I like your revised Level Drain tables, it should be exactly like that:

    @ LEVEL 10, 2 level and 1 CON
    @ LEVEL 15, 2 level and 2 CON
    @ LEVEL 20, 3 level and 2 CON
    @ LEVEL 25, 3 level and 3 CON
    @ LEVEL 30, 4 level and 3 CON

    But give me the opportunity to add something to add some flavor to the VAMPIRE class.

    Available at LEVEL 27 (NOT level 35 because the game would be over by then), in the form of either an ability once per day or a shapeshift similar to how Druids can become animals is this:

    ABILITY NAME: (Celer Decessus)

    (OR)

    SHIFTED-CREATURE NAME: (Dracula)


    This would be the ultimate reward for being a VAMPIRE. I would prefer being able to transform into DRACULA (who should take the appearance of Irenicus but COMPLETELY black head-to-toe, skin and all, like a shadow silhouette, but at the same time does not cast any shadows of his own) but if it proves to be too complicated, I would happily settle for a once-per-day ability charge.

    Once activated, the following parameters are applied to the VAMPIRE:

    -5 Level Drain, 3 CON Drain (with Fists).
    -20% chance of causing 6 Level Drain, 4 CON Drain with each hit.
    -STR and CHA fixed at 25. (Dracula's strength comes not from the Prime Material Planes, it is beyond comprehension (STR modifier there to increase the hit bonus), and his ability to appeal to each individual's ideal desires makes him incredibly charming)
    -Movement Speed halved. (Graceful, calm, composed).
    -All other abilities are disabled during this shift (including spells, thieving abilities, etc.)
    -MAGIC DAMAGE and MAGIC resistance set to 80%.
    -Ability/Transformation only lasts for 1 Turn.
    -Has the additional ability to shift into "Gaseous Form" like the other VAMPIRES where he is unable to be harmed or targeted, this form however is undone automatically once the duration of the spell (ability/transformation) ends.

    If this could be implemented, OHH MAN!


    4.) I still think the following should be innate VAMPIRE abilities:

    -BLUR
    -STRIKE FEAR (HORROR -4, 20-ft. radius)
    (Cause Fear actually already exists)
    -LIFE DRAIN (VAMPIRIC TOUCH, 9D6 Life Steal)
    -UNDEAD SONG (CONTROL UNDEAD -4, 20ft radius from caster, all must save)
    -FLESH TO STONE
    -SHAPECHANGE

    VAMPIRES are fearsome and could easily STRIKE FEAR into the hearts of many. LIFE DRAIN just makes sense for life-sucking creatures that they are, controlling the undead should be granted to a superior VAMPIRE like this, FLESH TO STONE to dispatch the lesser creatures, and SHAPECHANGE because of their natural ability to deceive, perhaps replace SHAPECHANGE with PROJECT IMAGE instead? Phew, that was tiring. Time to head off to sleep now!

    -Kangaxx JR
     
  16. Lavir Gems: 1/31
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    KangaaxJr,

    I really appreciate your comments and your efforts, but let's remain in simplicity, ok? The first thing that is needed is playability. If you add too much fire all that will remains will be only smoke an no food. I want to remain possibly nearest D&D rules, too many abilities creates only confusion. Better to have less and more powerful ones. This nice paragraph to say, concretely: slow down.

    Dracula form: well, you have spoiled one of the abilities of higher levels of the Vampire. I had already planned a Nosferatu form much similar to your own. Well...

    Problem with daylight: the Shaughin city is under the sea, so it is not an outdoor area, it is conceived as a dungeon as the light of the sun doesn't passes under the sea, so there will be no problems with the Vampire. No cloak of Gargoyles and neither a lower approach with the light of the sun. A vampire is death in the light, and so it shall be. Difficult? Yes, but it can be done. I've done it already. I've played all the game with a Vampire to check if it was possible to do almost all the quests (above all the main ones) without compromises, and with a bit of planning it is possible to do, so there is no need to accomodate it, and it is damned funny, probably the most funny template to add on a role-play view.

    Sincerely,
    Lavir.
     
  17. TGM Gems: 5/31
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    [​IMG] Right you are, both!

    Those are truly charming ideas, Kangaxx, but I still side with the harder requirements, and a bit less abilities.

    And Lavir, you're absolutely right about the Vampire...I think that will be my favorite as well:) That is the most interseting of all the template classes.

    (Actually I do not like the Dragon-templates at all, but, that's just me. They are unbalanced, and playing them is a true pain - I tried out being a Dragon on many locations in the game by using SK, and well...you can't even move, because you are too big, and the environment wasn't planned for such large characters. It is absolutely annoying that a great and invincible Dragon must change back to human just to walk through some street...sorry, but that is just not the best)

    But as I see, the others are now pretty cool. Nice work, all of you.

    TGM
     
  18. Mierin Gems: 4/31
    Latest gem: Sunstone


    Veteran

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    Are the templates available for download, the new ones, old ones or median ones, and what are there disadvantages and requirements and how do i use them? (no readme)
     
  19. Xithias Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


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    Where do I download half-dragon?
     
  20. icarusX Gems: 1/31
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    where do i download these?

    [Perhaps you should look on the first page of this thread where Taluntain posted the location - BTA]

    [This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited October 23, 2001).]
     
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