1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Switzerland's voters reject basic income plan

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Taluntain, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    22,685
    Media:
    482
    Likes Received:
    444
    Gender:
    Male
    (More.)

    I'm really not sure how I feel about this. There are so many variables to take into account that even where basic income is being tested on a limited basis, one country's implementation varies significantly from another's. While the concept sounds appealing, there are definitely more questions than answers at this point. And I can't help but feel that this is something that's impossible to effectively test unless it was permanently implemented country-wide, because anything less would not provide a valid test result because people will definitely behave differently when only part of a limited-time test group vs. knowing that they'd actually have this income provided for life.
     
  2. Keneth Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


    ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    2,766
    Likes Received:
    180
    Gender:
    Male
    From my experience, Swiss people form a very cohesive group on most matters and there are very few of these new-agey liberal ideas being widely supported by the general populace.

    As far as I'm concerned, it sounds like a horrible plan, but I'm considerably biased when it comes to social benefits. I will fully support a plan to ensure a decent pay for any hard-working person, but I am vehemently opposed to granting any significant social benefits to people who don't work. Effort should be put into making people useful, not allowing them to leech resources. Equality for the sake of equality is garbage. We have more than enough coddled, entitled people in first world already, breeding yet another generation of these wankers is the last thing we should be doing.
     
    aaa27aaa likes this.
  3. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,406
    Media:
    34
    Likes Received:
    132
    Gender:
    Male
    It sounds like a good plan to reject it. Unless they want to attract any still free roaming Syrians or other immigrants, who'd love to live there and do nothing while getting a good pay.

    A higher base income like that will also drive the minimum wages up. Or no-one will want to do the low paying jobs anymore, because they'd get more money by just staying at home.

    Also 2500 swiss franc is outrageous. That's like twice the minimum income in Belgium. And Switserland is not that expensive to live anymore. It used to be, but now it's maybe a little more expensive than Germany or some other € countries.
     
  4. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,098
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    307
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't understand how anyone who understands "human nature" could think that this would be a good idea.
     
  5. Arkite

    Arkite Crash or crash through Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    50
    It's early days, but basically with the rise of the robots coming, it isn't a question of if, but when many, many low/no skilled jobs are going to be gone for good. This presents a global problem of what to do with the millions of people who had those jobs. Traditionally they'd just go onto unemployment benefits/welfare while they are looking for work, but the idea of that was to get a fired factory worker into another factory job, if there are no other low/no skilled jobs to be had, that doesn't work.

    The other part of it is that as most Western nations have requirements job seekers have to meet to qualify for an unemployment benefit/payment, and in some cases this (job finding) industry requires billions of government spending, to keep case managers employed to keep job seekers looking for work, with the relevant bureaucracy overseeing the entire thing. That whole industry falls down when case manager Dave doesn't have any low/no skilled jobs for job seeker Max, as those jobs have been automated. So if there are no jobs for Max, and he can't get an unemployment benefit, the government says well of course we'll abolish the spending going to employment agencies if there aren't any jobs for the people making use of those agencies. The problem then is those millions of people with no employment prospects and no unemployment payments, are essentially cast adrift.

    The most basic reasoning behind a basic income is that you take the money you were spending on various bureaucracies and employment agencies and give that directly to people without work. Depending on the country the number varies greatly, but you're looking at an average of about 15-20% of the workforce working right now in low/no skill jobs. If those many millions of people, in jobs that are going to be gone, are without the money for clothing and shelter and have no alternatives, we'll have a pretty dire situation. Crime and homelessness would skyrocket, economies of entire regions (mining town/city would be a good example) would collapse without the exchange of goods and trades and without tax revenues governments rely on, there'd be no services, health and sanitation decline, diseases and slums pop up, etc etc.

    It's a problem that no country will be able to avoid, we're starting to see the early stages of it in elevated youth unemployment levels around the world, where entry level and low skilled jobs that were there 10/20/30 years ago just aren't there anymore.
    The issue is massive and complex, because it makes us start to ask questions about what values we want our societies to have.
     
    Taluntain likes this.
  6. Keneth Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


    ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    2,766
    Likes Received:
    180
    Gender:
    Male
    Giving everyone free money isn't a solution though. It's barely even a band-aid and it encourages the wrong kind of mentality.
     
  7. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,098
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    307
    Gender:
    Male
    I believe Arkite has summed up my position really well. Low paying jobs are not meant to be careers. My son who is in college is spending his summer ringing a register at Wendy's. He would love to make a lot of money doing so, but he understands that any moron can do what he is doing and that is why he is making minimum wage. As a society what are we supposed to do with people who are either too lazy, too ignorant, or somehow made themselves unable to survive? I admit to not having the answer, but I am opposed to giving them my money through taxation.
     
    ConjurerDragon likes this.
  8. Stefanina Gems: 18/31
    Latest gem: Horn Coral


    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 28, 2002
    Messages:
    1,091
    Media:
    5
    Likes Received:
    5
    Gender:
    Female
    And yet, the majority of people ringing registers at Wendy's are NOT teenagers, they are adults with families. Always have been, always will be. The fact is that most people do not have the resources to train for skilled jobs, and most jobs that don't require special skills still demand college degrees.
     
  9. damedog Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Resourceful

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    50
    Gender:
    Male
    It's interesting to note that it is very often the same folks who claim there aren't enough decent jobs for adults so they get stuck permanently in dead end jobs like Wendy's that are against strong immigration restrictions that would keep domestic jobs available to those who need them to get out of places like Wendy's.

    This isn't directed at you personally, mind.
     
  10. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,098
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    307
    Gender:
    Male
    It is a fact of life. Jobs disappear and never return. It is very Darwinian, you either adapt/evolve or you die out. People that have no skills that are valuable (and working a register is not a valuable skill) are shortly going to be phased out of the economy. All these people advocating for living wages and higher minimum wages don't realize that all they are doing is accelerating the time that they are replaced by robots/automation.

    Now, I know everyone wants to lay blame. I'm not sure who to blame. Is the parents who didn't steer their children in the correct direction. Is it the individual who was not motivated enough to develop valuable skills? Is it the businesses? Is it government? Depending on how you answer this question kind of shows your political affiliations.

    It is an interesting question as to what is going to happen in the next couple of decades. If the minimum wage jobs disappear, what are the unprepared going to do? We may see governments collapse in an attempt to pacify the unprepared and the taxpayers (who will be shouldering the burden). I see this as a major problem that not only the first world, but the developing nations will have to deal with.
     
  11. damedog Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Resourceful

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    50
    Gender:
    Male
    There is going to be a point where the total number of jobs needed are going to far exceed the population looking for jobs since so much can be automated. A lot of people are flooding into IT at the moment but that can't hold everyone. We will probably see some significant restructuring of the economy in my lifetime or some serious destabilization.
     
  12. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    22,685
    Media:
    482
    Likes Received:
    444
    Gender:
    Male
    You've pretty much answered your own question there. You can't have millions of people permanently on the dole because there are no jobs for them, and if you just let them starve you're going to have a civil war on your hands. Obviously the only solution is that the government will have to enforce a certain percentage of low-skilled jobs in every sector where this is feasible, which is likely pretty much where it still is now. It's unrealistic to say that everyone can become a doctor or a lawyer or an astronaut. Even if each and every person had the same educational and other contributing conditions that led to that point, there are dozens of other factors that will influence scores of people never being able to reach beyond low-skilled jobs simply due to low IQ, disability, etc. Unless you propose that those people should just die of starvation to help improve the overall gene pool, I don't see an alternative that doesn't involve them working low skill jobs.
     
  13. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,219
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    205
    Gender:
    Male
    Turn them into soylent green! Anyone's got the skills necessary to become food! :)
     
    ConjurerDragon and Taluntain like this.
  14. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    22,685
    Media:
    482
    Likes Received:
    444
    Gender:
    Male
  15. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,098
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    307
    Gender:
    Male
  16. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    22,685
    Media:
    482
    Likes Received:
    444
    Gender:
    Male
    The UBI idea keeps coming up here again and again so I wish that more countries were doing small scale tests and trying to implement different versions. This is just one of those things that needs a bunch of trial runs and even then the results in one country would not necessarily be the same or even similar in another.
     
  17. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,098
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    307
    Gender:
    Male
    I agree. One of my biggest issues is people like to use things that work in very homogeneous Scandinavian countries as examples. I personally, do not see UBI working at all in a country as large and diverse as the United States.
     
Sorcerer's Place is an independent project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of time and money on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!