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Stupid "strategies"

Discussion in 'BG2: Shadows of Amn (Classic)' started by Rakanishu, Dec 19, 2000.

  1. Rakanishu Gems: 12/31
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    [​IMG] I just had a look at the "strategies" posted at gamebanshee and I must say most of them are pretty stupid. Using cloudkill on unhostile dragons, Magic Resistance cursing, and whacking golems through tight openings is neither mind-blowingly clever nor merits posting as any idiot can figure out such whorish tricks in desperation.

    It's one thing if they advocated using Harm or Slay Living to kill a dragon, it's another when they post moronic advice such as setting nine or ten of Yoshimos traps before attacking.

    Or using a Pit Fiend against Firkraag because he desn't attack it. And saying the tactic doesn't work on the Shadow Dragon because it retaliates.

    MORONIC I TELL YOU!
     
  2. Sylvus Moonbow Gems: 21/31
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    Those are not strategies in my mind and some may argue with me and that's fair enough considering I think using arrows is cowardly.

    Never-the-less, this isn't a discussion about arrows. :)

    A strategy ... err "tactic"?! is having the entire party in the heat of battle, with each and every character having the risk of dying or taking damage. Sitting back in a lawn chair drinking lemon-aid shooting a +3 sling at a Golem who can't go through the door isn't a strategy. What part of this battle are you using your head for to defeat your enemy?

    Blame poor AI programing on that one. The Golem should realize it can't get to you and move out of the doorway and back into the fog of war, or off to the side of the room.

    Cloudkill on Dragons. Yes. Been through that discussion many times. Exploit, not a strategy.

    I won't even waste my time on trap setting around dragons.

    In every battle to date that I have come across, I have tried to make sure every member of my party is part of the action and proof of that can be read in any area I've done for the BG2 Online Solution.

    If I fail, I do it again with the entire party, trying diffrent things. Maybe a different potion, or cast a spell sooner that I did before and going after a creature or NPC I underestimated the first time and attack them right away.

    The hardest battle to date was that damn Lich were the Daystar sword was and I high gunned it out of there with all the party members on deaths door. Although I knew Daystar was in there, I tried to kill the damn beast before getting it and as the battle went on, knew I wasn't ready, grabbed what I could and retreated. Thinking I was safe, the damn thing followed me and I waited until the very last second to use the sword. The Lich failed his saving throw against Sunray and I took a deep breath.

    They should change Strategies to "Easy Way Out".

    Syl...


    [This message has been edited by Sylvus Moonbow (edited December 19, 2000).]
     
  3. Shura Gems: 25/31
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    I love using arrows. Anyway, Syl, since it's in the game, use it. Cloudkill, +3 ranged weapons and small entrances. The bloody dragons are so difficult that I absolutely have to at least get the first attack ( I attack when they're still unhostile ). Granted, a gazillion traps in front of Firkragg does spoil the fun a bit but there's no sense making life so difficult for yourself. And about including everyone in a battle, when Edwin or Aerie runs out of spells, no way am I going to get them to pull out a dagger or mace and rush the enemy.
    Me(Kensai/mage) and Minsc do most of the fighting while Viconia, Jaheira and the rest chill out at the back.
     
  4. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    One little peeve about the AI I have is that you can block passages/doorways with characters hiding in shadows! LOL!
     
  5. Sylvus Moonbow Gems: 21/31
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    Difficult? How does anyone see it difficult?

    The creatures are beatable by normal game means so I don't understand why some have to resort to using exploits or flaws in the game to get a victory under their belt.

    Everything in this game is beatable on normal terms so it just boggles me that some remove the fun of doing so for the quick and easy route of say, 3x cloudkill on a dragon while he's still in the fog of war and can't see you.

    Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

    Syl...
     
  6. Kinslayer Gems: 1/31
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    [​IMG] Ok this is a subject that raises a lot of emotions, but I think I have a slightly different take on it.

    I agree that the cloudkill and setting trap around dragons is an exploit, but I think the following strategies that I used are fair. Give me your opinions.

    1. At the mind flayers in the sewers I had Jan set 3 traps in front of the door, then had Minsc run up the hallway with boots of speed and improved invisiblity, he opened the door, they took damage from the traps, then as he ran back down the hallway Aerie used a wand of cloudkill on the hallway and Dargreth (my blade) cast skull trap. Then when the Mind Flayers pursued most were killed and my party was ready for the few that made it. Fair? I think so.

    2. The beholders and gauths in the Unseeing eye area. I had Dargreth and Aerie and Jan all cast Minor Spell Turning and Imporved Invisibility. Keldorn used the spider figurine and Jaheira summoned a Fire Elemental. The spider and the elemental each when halfway down two different hallways. Then Dargreth, Aerie and Jan went down seperate paths when they got close enough to see and target the Beholders Dargreth and Aerie let loose with wand of cloudkill and Jan a wand of Lightning, the they high-tailed is back up the hallway. They were out of range by the time the spell turning wore off and the the beholders spotted the summoned creatures and went after them. Meanwhile keldorn and Minsc slowly approached and attacked what was left after most of their eye attacks were used up. An exploit? I think fair strategy, especially since I used a wizard eye to know where the beholders were first.

    One last comment, killing Golems while they are trapped in doorways. Golems are not known for intelligence, they are programmed with the single minded purpose of killing intruders, they know nothing of tactics and only know to rush and kill. Try to picture yourself in this situation in reality, the most likely strategy you would use in real life is to exploit their stupidity and kill them from afar...gee much like hunting, huh? When you hunt you dont go hand to hand with a moose, dear or bear, you wait for it to be in the right place from the relative safety of a tree perch and shoot it.

    So think about it in reality, would a dragon let you set traps around it (reality?)? no. Can you set traps on the door outside of a room of bad guys without them knowing it? yes. Would you rush a golem when you know it is stupid enough to stand in a doorway and let you kill it (they dont fear death after all)? of course not!

    Sorry so long, but I felt I had to chime in on this one.
     
  7. Fergus Gems: 7/31
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    [​IMG] Excellent view Kinslayer.
    Give that man a round of applause.

    I find Beholders the only creature I have problems with and have to use some sort of trick to beat and find Mind Flayers have some strange attacks (1 hit kills on Minsc at 100 Hp ?) so give as good as you get.
     
  8. Kyrn Gems: 2/31
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    The problem with those frickin' golems is that you can't do a thing about them being stuck. I met two of them in the planar sphere engine and if you recall the passage are quite small. Well both were stuck and couldn't be moved. Thus I could only go one on one. And if you go one on one with a long weapon (Staff, Spear, halberd) You can reach him, he can't. Thus I wasted at least 10 minutes killing the twats at 3 pts of damage each time.
    As I said there is nothing you can do about this.
     
  9. Rasalgethi Gems: 5/31
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    I agree with Kinslayer. Golems are not known for their intelligence. I guess you talked about the right plot, what will you do if you face the real situation ? Wise words Kinslayer *applaudes*.

    Personnally, I used traps only once against the first three Gauths you meet in the tunels, I set the traps before the bridge, then run and run to attract the Gauths and flee away... not brave but efficient, and quite realistic.

    I never used cloud kill.
     
  10. Beorn Gems: 5/31
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    So would setting traps around the shadow dragon be cheap? You have that stone that allows you to pass unnoticed, and one would think that it would also allow you to set traps around him. Not that I did this (in two times through, I didn't use the trap ability once), but it would certainly seem acceptable based on what's been said in this thread.
     
  11. Sylvus Moonbow Gems: 21/31
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    You'll do no such thing in real life because there are no such things as Golems. This is about a game and you can't compare it to reality because there isn't one to compare it to.

    The only reason a Golem would get stuck in a door is if you tucked your tail and ran out the door in the first place. ;)

    Syl...
     
  12. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    [​IMG] One question... How did the golem get in there in the first place? Was the place built around it? :)

    [This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited December 19, 2000).]
     
  13. Rasalgethi Gems: 5/31
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    Blackthorne, you can create a small 1 feet golem (homunculus) then low is Magic Res. then cast enlarge to get a BIG one, lol :)).
     
  14. Sylvus Moonbow Gems: 21/31
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    So when you leave the Dragon's Lair with the Ward Stone, all those traps you left remain hidden and unnoticed as well?

    Unlikely. A dragon will notice a difference in the very lair it has been living in for many, many years, especially when there are traps littered on the floor and trip wires waiting for him to step on.

    Syl...
     
  15. Beorn Gems: 5/31
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    Touche, Syl...I hadn't thought of that.
     
  16. Lord Bane Gems: 10/31
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    What about this one : when fighting a powerful, single mage (or Lich), advance slowly with one character, make the enemy mageling cast all his protections, retreat and wait untill they expire ? Very handy against the Elemental Lich in particular, since he'll end up fighting his own Pit Fiend.

    Still, I used this 'tactic' on this Lich (cause I was rather low-levelled), and I felt incredibely bad afterwards. Of course, it is 'realistic' (as in PnP) that you run away from such a powerful foe, but shouldn't he chase you then ? After all, thanks to his protections he's nearly invulnerable at that time.

    Do you consider this cheating, merely exploiting bad AI, or just a valid tactic ?
     
  17. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I would say exploiting bad AI... And I can't understand why the monster AI is the way it is. As all who played IWD know, they are perfectly capable of activating an entire dungeon of monsters against you, all of them boiling out of the fog of war at you and a hidden bastard summoning more monsters!

    It must be some kind of balancing issue to make the game not too hard for beginners...
     
  18. Sylvus Moonbow Gems: 21/31
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    That part of IWD was tough! Very well done on the makers of that bottom level.

    As in PnP to Lord Banes comment, yes a party can run away, but the Lich wouldn't run out of spells when you came back like they do in BG2.

    It would be cool if the Lich chased you, but it would be better if he just summoned a slew of beasts and had them chase you.

    Syl...
     
  19. Lord Moeken Gems: 13/31
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    I admit that I sometimes use the trap ability. I don't agree with setting traps, sleeping, setting more traps...
    As with many of the abilities and spells and insta-kill presto magic stuff found in BG2, my opinion is that if it's used in a fair manner as it was intended, then go for it.

    Snares- half the time they fail, and if you haven't sacrificed a good portion of your theiving abilities to this ability you will likely hurt yourself while setting a trap. I set traps as ambush points. Let the monster chase me than WHAM. They also work well as insurance when a battle is going bad. Retreating with your party back to your trapped area can mean the difference between life and death sometimes. Let's face it, part of the excitement in these games is found when we vanquish foes that we know damn well we shouldn't. We can't all be patient little adventurers waiting for the moment that we can stand toe to toe with the baddies during a slugfest. There are hard ways to kill monsters, and there are simpler ways to kill monsters. I prefer to use what is at my diposal. It's not always a cake walk when you use 'questionable tactics' and it can be fun.
     
  20. desperado Gems: 3/31
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    Fergus : If you were kill by a Illithid with one hit it's because your character must have a low-intelligence. Every times you are hit by an Illithid these bastard suck 2-4 points (maybe more?) of your Intelligence and when your character reach 0 intelligence , he die.
     
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