Steve Jobs is dead

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It's bizarre that this guy dying could somehow be cause for yet more Mac vs. PC debates.

 

I know, it is just that Apple takes those existing concepts and *finishes* them. That's what I am paying extra money for. I don't want some half-baked PoS produced by Creative since it falls short on every aspect. I don't want to use a Windows machine since I will only be struggling because the people at Microsoft don't understand how people use computers (and keep on screwing their developers, but that's another story.)

I simply want quality, and I don't care if the system specs are outdated, because in the end it is only about how I perceive the speed of that system. Why did they allow something as monstrous as Vista? Why do I always have to wait seconds to open an explorer window, no matter my machine specs? Why do I have always have dozens of seconds to wait for a complete processor userspace switch whenever I have to give a process special rights? Unix solved that problem ages ago, and it is bloody fast. Apple simply copied that mechanism because it works. Only idiots reinvent the square wheel.

 

Should we take this discussion to the alley?

 

You can say the same thing about McDonalds - they didn't invent the cheeseburger.

That's why I said is biggest trait was giving people what they want before we even knew we wanted it. And yes, the marketing of these products is a necessary step in doing that.

 

yes I agree, though they would dispute that.

a good comparison has been made here, people say cheese burger many would think of McDonalds... when their cheese burgers suck in comparison to competitors.

in my first post I tried to make a point about this, by mentioning Rupert Murdoch, Murdoch was a genius who gave the public exactly what they wanted, Steve Jobs sort of did the same and yet he is respected, even admired, despite the fact that he had a disgusting attitude of arrogance and superiority.

 

If the extra money was paid to the poor souls that make tech stuff it would be a lot better. Again al tech companies do it. Perhaps an eco brand to justify higher prices.

Again, as an Apple hater I still give credit for what he has done. But that the world community compares him to God, to be worshipped like a messiah is a disgrace. Not his doing so it does not reflect on him.

 

It always cracks me up to see Apple haters insist that Apple products are crap and that the only reason people buy Apple is because of the iMarketing and that they are sheep. It's just such a ridiculous statement that it boggles the mind how often I see it. I'm not singling out anyone in particular when I say this, mind you.

Brand loyalty is built through quality, period. All the flashy marketing and lifestyle gimmicks in the world will never make a person loyal to crappy products, especially not at the price ranges we're talking about. I am a graphic designer professionally, and the incoming president of a professional organization for designers. So needless to say, just about everyone I know uses one apple product or another. And most of those people value quality, efficiency and reliability over just about anything else, because these are all the hallmarks of what is considered good product design. Designers used to flock to Apple products because 10-15 years ago, it was the industry standard, and most industry-standard design software was Mac-only. Now all the best software is cross-platform. So if PC's are so superior to Macs, as some in this thread insist, why would an entire industry of professionals whose preference for superior design and reliability is ingrained in their very professional philosophy prefer Macs in such overwhelming numbers? Because they want to be trendy and they like the letter "i" before everything? Please. I know designers who've been working off of the same Macbooks, G4's and iPods for 6+ years, without ever having to take them in for service. Not what I would call a crap product.

Apple worship is irrational and silly, but Apple hatred is just as bad and usually worse. You may not like Apple as a company and what they stand for, and that's fine – but they obviously make excellent products that work well as advertised and are the preference of some of the most tech-savvy and sophisticated professionals working today. Dismissing Apple's popularity as merely the result of trendy marketing just makes you look ignorant.

 

My experience with apple products is that both my ipods died on me after 6 months so I don't buy apple products because of that. Another reason I dont buy apple products is becuase there is usally something better out there that costs less then the apple thing. I don't tell people not to buy apple I just don't go out and buy them myself. I am neither an apple fanboy nor am I a apple hater either but their recent attacks on android devs is starting to get to me tho. I use to use a psp for music and movies on the go before I got my andorid powered smartphone. I am also looking into picking up a android powered tablet like the amazon kindle fire for movies and browsing the web while I am out and about. The screen on my phone is to small to use comfortable for long stretches of time. so my phone will do the phone stuff like calls and text while also doing music while I will do everything else on the tablet.

 

That means absolutely nothing, as door security I work closely with sound techies, they all use PC's we use PC's for survelliance, in the forces we used PC's, every major government agency in this country uses PC's, my brother is a stage manager in the west end and can you guess what they use for sound and lighting? PC's, I studied media in college, graphic and web design was part of that, we were taught on PC's.

I have never argued that the apple products themselves are crap in itself for what it is, what I argue is that you can get far better for price.

lets use an example here, Argos, have 1 macbook for sale, its £867... for that you get an Intel Core 2 Duo processor, 2GB RAM and 250GB hard drive.
I paid £349 for a laptop with similar (slightly better) spec last christmas. For £899 you can get a computational powerhouse sony F series.

Your average 32gb Ipad is £579, however an Acer A500 is £429, that has a bigger screen, higher resolution, provides bluetooth and USB and a micro SD card slot - the product is better in every way.... but its not an Ipad.

For £164.99 you can get an 8gb Ipod Touch for £99.99 you can get a 16gb creative Zen XFi 2... but as my bosses 11 yearold son told me... thats not an Ipod.

like clothes, you pay for the name, nothing more.

 

All due respect, Shoshino, but no - that's absurd.

I've owned 2 Creative Zen mp3 players. Bought a pair for my wife and I to use at the gym. This was back when I thought iPods were an overpriced fad for people who just bought them to be trendy. Both stopped working within 6 months - no damage done whatsoever - and Creative's tech support sent me replacements for both...which ALSO crapped out, this time both within 3 months. I bought an iPod touch (2nd generation) for $25 more than I paid for the Zen, 3 years ago. After dropping it countless times, and my wife leaving it in my jeans without checking the pockets before a wash, it still works like a charm. My wife loved it so much she kept stealing mine, so I bought her one. Same with both of our iPhones - I bought one (best phone I've ever had) and after her seventh - seventh!! - Android-based phone crapped out on her after only a few months, she broke down and got an iPhone, and loves the sh*t out of it. My 4 year old MacBook Pro still runs like a champ, and every work computer I've ever used - all G4's and G5's - all run quieter and more stable than many of the PCs I've done similar work on. In fact, I'm typing this response on my home PC - the 3rd I've built since I bought my Macbook pro. If it weren't for gaming, I doubt I would even own a PC at all.

So no, it doesn't mean absolutely nothing. There's usually a reason you can get alternative gadgets with identical or superior specs on the box for less money - inferior components and/or design. A name isn't "just a name you pay for" in all cases, and demonstrably so in the case of Apple products. They are very high quality and yes, while more expensive than other brands with similar posted specs, they usually have better track records for reliability than the other brands. That means something. I would rather pay more for a well-designed quality product ONCE than replace a similarly-spec'ed piece of sh*t every few years, just because it's cheaper. That they are also far more aesthetically pleasing than most other brands is just icing on the cake.

 

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, I've got a Zen 2 and after 16 months it's still going strong, I bought my wife an Ipod 2 years ago, cost me est £150 it lasted 3 months and we didnt even replace it as the mp3 player I bought for £12 did the job easier and better and FYI is still working today, my XFi is compatible with every audio file out there including Itunes format, I keep movies on micro SD cards, easy to carry so I can watch what I want when I want, the screen is also bigger and higher resolution. So we both have opposite experiences.

I haven't met a person who's Iphone has lasted their 18 month contract, my Blackberry is still working since I bought it in 2009.

I outright disagree with this comment, as substandard components can often be overpriced, I will once again refer to clothes in this, you can pay £30 for a black and white dress in George, or £200 for a similar dress in Karen Millen, the Karen Millen dress on the other hand will bleed dye from the black to the white in dry cleaning due to inferior dye stuffs, Emilio Pucci, is the biggest load of $h!t on the market, single layer material sewn together on a seam, yet you'll pay upwards of £600 for any item in their current range. I compare apple and PC component manufacturer's in the same light, lots of component manufacturer's of PC components and software mean a competative low price, apple on the other hand are the only distributer of apple components holding a monopoly over the manufacturer's of their components, they set their prices at what the consumer will pay, and since the consumer seem to want an Ipad which they have no real use for other then the fact that they simply want it its easy enough to charge exorbinant prices, I would also like to point out that with apple computers you cannot upgrade them, so when they are out of date (they often are when they are bought), you have to buy a new one, with my first PC (which I had when I was 16), by swapping out only select components every so often it lasted till I was 22, when I decided to build a high spec gaming machine, I would also like to point out that I still have all fo the original components, all of which are still working today, the pentum 4 450mhz with 256 mb of ram and onboard legacy rage graphics, still works 12 years later.

I think they look Cliniclly sterile, to me, they are not asthetically pleasing - face it, a mac is just a white box with an apple logo on it

 

Time to be a voice of reason.

I've had a pair of Creative Zen MP3 players, they both lasted wonderfully. One was a rather old, chunky affair that had 30gb of storage and lasted until it was dropped from quite a height by me in a drunken haze. The other one, I still have now, though I don't use it. The player is mechanically sound, but it uses a touchscreen interface that's HORRENDOUSLY unresponsive and sluggish.

I also have an old iPod that the missus gave me. It's a.. 2nd gen, if i'm not mistaken? It's seen some hefty knocks but still works a treat. "I had one and it lasted 2 days" is not proof of poor reliability. One of the guys at work bought himself a GTX 460 for his PC, and it died within a week. Doesn't mean a thing, just bad luck.

An iPod is just another choice of MP3 player. It's not the second coming, and it's not a heap of junk.

Edit: As for looks for Apple products vs competitors, it really comes down to this thing called PERSONAL CHOICE. I think some Apple stuff, such as Macbooks, look great. Would I buy one? No, Macbooks are silly money, but I do like the minimalist style of a single piece of aluminium and a faintly glowing Apple logo.

 

Shoshino,

I'm starting to think you have no actual personal experience with Apple whatsoever. Of course you can upgrade components in Apple computers - it's an exceedingly easy process. Easier than most PC towers I've worked with. I don't know where you get this. Also, saying people want iPads but have no use for them is just a really stupid thing to say, I'm sorry. Since anecdotal evidence doesn't seem to sway you, I won't tell you about the friends of mine who use them for work and play every day, or about the marketplace demand for tablet-ready interactive documents designed around the iPad's specs. I have yet to hear of anyone buying an iPad and sticking it on a shelf.

Your point about George vs. Karen Millan (UK clothiers I assume? Never heard of them) is a valid one, but it's not something I disagreed over. I said that in some cases you are indeed just paying for the label. I disagree that that is the case with many brands out there - but especially Apple. Besides - comparing tech to fashion isn't a sound comparison. The tech industry is driven by data and performance (objective qualities) whereas the fashion industry is driven entirely by the personal style and taste of a number of individuals and the trends they start and/or predict (purely subjective qualities). That is why there are few household names in tech - fashion is driven almost entirely by the importance of names. It could be argued that one of Jobs' accomplishments was a minor blurring of those lines - in helping make tech trendy and cool - but still. Nobody is going to pay $3000 for a MacBook Pro that doesn't work well just because it's a MacBook Pro - their first concern is "will this work and last." Unlike with tech, some people will gladly pay a month's wages for couture not because they need it, but because they want people to see them wearing that label and could give a sh*t how it was made or how fragile the item is (and most couture clothing is extremely delicate). Their primary concern is "will this make me look good," with "will this work and last" being a distant secondary, if considered at all. Which is why I have little respect for fashionistas.

To everyone - we can certainly all agree that no tech company has a flawless track record. Acer makes some great products, but also a few duds. As does SonyErickson, and Toshiba, and Samsung, etc. Some people have had bad experiences with iPods, but most who have them love them. Same can probably be said for Creative Zens and little black and white dresses from Karen Millan. As with anything, caveat emptor.

I have no doubt that people like Cap'n CJ - who've had excellent experiences with Creative Zens, just as one example - are in the vast majority of Zen owners. Creative wouldn't be in business otherwise. I would never have bought two myself had I not read positive reviews on them. But that isn't the point. The point is somehow, the reverse never seems to be true for Apple in some people's minds. The vast majority of Apple users have overwhelming satisfaction with their purchases and a much higher than average tech savviness, but are never afforded that respect by some. I'm not bothered by that really, it just strikes me as remarkably silly.

More than anything, it's the disrespect shown to Apple users that I find so obnoxious. Despite my personal experience with Android phones, I feel no compulsion to go around telling Android users they're suckers and sheep who just follow trends and are paying for nothing but a brand. And as Android phones vastly outsell iPhones, I'd have a much better case in doing so. Yet Apple haters seem all too comfortable with doing exactly that. And as I said before, they look like prats in doing so. And as a former Apple-hater myself, I know what I'm talking about.

 

Why would I despise products from a company if I hadn't had several bad experiences with them? If I had no experience with apple, why would I give a $h!t? I dont go to a restaurant, which Ive had good meals in the past, have a bad meal and then say "I'm never going there again!"

I disagree here, apple has marketed itself as a named brand, the 'i' brand is known to everyone, you'd have to live in a cave, on mars, with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears (credit: simpsons), to have not heared of an Ipod or Ipad, the apple products themselves dont matter, its the ego/respect of owning one, 10 yearolds dont know the difference, but they ask their parents for them, because they know them, and their friends have them, it is nothing more then personal style in appearence and name.

I didnt say they dont use them, I said they dont need them, they just wanted them, there are many companies out there which sell items like this Iwantoneofthose.com is a prime example with a good slogan "Stuff you dont need, but you really really want" - and, all of these products are over priced.

do they? how do you know?, all you have to go on are statistics which say how many devices have sold, not how many people will buy another one when the consider their next purchaise.

here's the difference, people who have an Iphone say, I have an Iphone, ask alot of people with an andriod what they have, theyll tell you the brand of phone, my wife being a good example, I just said to her "Babe, would you buy another andriod phone?" and she looked at me blankly and said "Ive never had an andriod phone" she has a Samsung Galaxy - andriod isnt a branded gimmik.

 

No, but apparently you'll claim you can't upgrade an apple computer without having owned one, or at least tried to open one up to see how not upgradable they aren't.

Sorry, but no. Apple has done an impressive job marketing their product, you're right - probably better than any tech company ever has. But again - clever marketing will inspire the first purchase only. If they have a bad experience, they won't come back. You are an example of that. Brand loyalty is earned through a repeated quality experience, which the overwhelming majority of Apple users obviously have. To deny this is to deny a simple reality.

Again - this is a really absurd thing to say, and betrays little more than bitterness on your part. No one "needs" a gaming PC. No one needs an iPhone, or a Samsung Galaxy, or any smart phone for that matter. No one "needs" an iPad, or any tablet. These are gadgets. People have a specific use in mind for them, so they buy them. You seem to think everyone who buys an iPad uses it for little more than a toy - and I will admit there there are certainly those out there who do. Some. But what consumer tech is that NOT true of? Why would you single out Apple in this respect? You think Alienware making their machines look like little spaceships ISN'T a marketing gimmick? iPad owners aren't wankers just because you can't think of a reason for them to have one.

This is true, I will concede. But so what? iOS is exclusive to the iPhone, and thus, the phone is synonymous with the platform. This is a smart strategy. If you go into a store and ask for an iPhone, you know exactly what you're getting. Go in and ask for an Android - and thanks to "marketing gimmicks," that's exactly what most shoppers do - they could get a great phone like a Samsung Galaxy or they could get a brick. Most people get bricks, because they don't know the difference - all they know is "Android = good!", which paves the way for the guy at the store to sell them not the best phone for the customer, but the one with the highest profit margin for him. Some might call THAT a marketing gimmick.

In my experience, the Samsung Galaxy is one of the few who actually are worth the price. I'm glad your wife likes her phone. But you're deluding yourself if you think the Android platform - with all of it's blockbuster-budget marketing and beepin' and boopin' robot sound effects - is not ALSO a marketing gimmick that people ask for by the name.

Again - it's only a "branded gimmick" if both the phone and the platform suck. In the case of the iPhone, neither do. You'll disagree, I'm sure, but beyond our respective personal preferences, all the hard data, reviews, and popularity among consumers other than little kids who say "gimme gimme gimme" would indicate I'm standing on solid ground here. Your mileage may vary.

 

I'm not so sure about that, at least across the board. I used to buy jeans from a common middle-of-the-road brand, then realized one day that I was always kind of uncomfortable in them, then bought jeans from a more expensive brand and found that I was no longer uncomfortable in them. I think the more expensive brand is better made. Which proves absolutely nothing about Mac vs. PC.

I hear you DR, but I think there's two sides to that story as well. I'm a PC user and have never used a Mac (did use an old Apple II ages ago). I have absolutely no disdain for Macs or Mac users. I generally don't care what kind of computer people choose for themselves, which seems like kind of a no-brainer - what could that possibly have to do with me? But while I have seen PC people show hatred for Macs, I have also seen Mac people look down their noses at PC people. In fact I've seen much more of that, although that's probably just because I see only the PC side, being on the PC side. (The side you're on is always the aggrieved side. ) This also proves nothing about the virtues of Macs and PCs, but I think it illustrates the point that the bias goes both ways.

~

Anyway, it's very sad that Steve Jobs is dead, though IMO no more sad than that any other person is dead. People (and I haven't seen this here) who declaim that dead person x was a rotten piece of s**t after his death are severely lacking in decorum, except on the rare occasion that the dead person is some kind of monster - genocidal maniac, mass murderer, ruiner of lives, etc. Anyone else should get a pass because they're f*cking dead, they were once alive and human, and for that they deserve some basic dignity.

 

@ Geaer,

Believe it or not, I'm actually on YOUR side, too. I am the PC side, and, I am the Mac side. I think both PC and Mac hatred is petty and stupid, just as I think PC or Mac partisanship is petty and stupid. I use both, love both. Neither is a clear winner in every respect, nor do they have to be.

I definitely agree about Mac people looking down on PC people. It is far more common, and some Mac folks can be elitists. That is what turned me off about Macs for years. Still does, even though I am a Mac user now. It's a big part of what fuels the anti-Apple furvor; in that it's more about the people than the product.

Your last paragraph was very well said.

 

Nice one Tal. As for the rest of this discussion. As I have said I have had bad experinces with apple products and I even bought more then 1 so yeah I dont use them becuase of that. Currently have my first android powered smartphone and I am loving it as a phone and music players but it sucks for anything else since the screen is a tiny 3.2 incher. That is why I will be looking into getting a tablet this holiday season if I have enough money saved up that is. I will be looking at the amazon kindle fire which is a nice 7inch tablet even tho it is missing a few parts like no camera and no micro sd slot. I wont be needing either of those with the built in memory of 8 gigs. I will be using the tablet for movies books and browsing the web mostly and leave the phone and music to my phone. I personaly have no need to get a ipad or one of those expnseive tablets that seem to cost $400+ If i want a gaming device I will just use my psp like I have been for emulators and psx games on the go.I wont preorder the kindle fire tho and wont bge getting it until 9its been rooted and eople figure out how to get the google market on there so I can install moboplayer. I use mobo becuase it can run my mkv anime collection unlile android itself. I prefer not to reincode my stuff just to run on the hardware i need it to run on. Hmm wonder if I can stream videos via network or via internet from my home pc to android. I am going to have to ask about that on another forum.

 

An average user comes to a store that sells tech stuff.

At the PC department he/she sees a few dozen black ugly boxes with a long list of things that it can do or has. No working machines, no demo's , no salespersons, no idea what so ever as what to get. It makes no sense to the average user so it walks on.

At the laptop stands he/she sees the same. laptops bolted to the counter, locked with a password. Again no idea what they can do. Which one is good, which on will last?

Then it comes at the Apple stand, with actual sales persons who will answer your questions. It is well lighted, nice to be at, and everything is logically placed. The machines work, you can hold them and play around.

The money is burning a hole in the pocket of the consumer so it gets what it likes an picks up an Apple.

Does that mean that the Apple is best? I an way it is. the experience, the feeling the whole package is better, an if that is what the costumer wants, the customer will get.

The costumer does not care how many cores the CPU has. It wants to turn on facebook, it wants to visit Pirate Bay. It wants to be entertained. If it wants to play a game it picks up an console.