1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Star Wars: Of Plot-Holes & Loose-Ends Obscura

Discussion in 'Sensorium' started by Death Rabbit, Jun 13, 2005.

  1. JSBB Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2003
    Messages:
    4,054
    Likes Received:
    1
    Han Solo's claims regarding the Falcon's speed of .5 past light speed (I assume that would be 1.5 times the speed of light) pretty much have to be completely ignored - otherwise it would take months for anyone to travel to even the closest star system. At that speed I think it would take about 32 months to travel from Earth to Alpha Centauri.

    I still :lol: at the elaborate explanations that have been created to explain why Han is using a unit of distance to describe how fast he made the Kessel run.

    Lucas messed up - these are mistakes - live with it people.
     
  2. Aikanaro Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    20
    I would say that he claims it's the fastest as non-hyperspatial travel. Jumping to the other side of the galaxy through hyperspace is all fine and dandy - but his goes plenty fast without heading through hyperspace.
     
  3. JSBB Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2003
    Messages:
    4,054
    Likes Received:
    1
    If the Falcon can go faster than lightspeed outside of hyper-space it sure as heck is never shown that way. If we ignore the lack of some sort of speed related visual effects we have the problem of light based weapons that seem to have no problems hitting the ship.

    So unless we also have some sort of faster than lightspeed laser than I think we can safely say that Lucas' knowledge of astronomy was a little lacking when he made A New Hope and leave it like that.
     
  4. BigStick Gems: 13/31
    Latest gem: Ziose


    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, thanks to the mind-bending attributes of light, light-based weapons would have no problem hitting a vessle moving at FTL speeds. AS I recall from my high school/college physics, light always moves at the same speed, regardless of your frame of reference. This means that even if the Falcon is going twice light speed as it flies past a source firing a light-based weapon, to those aboard the Falcon, the discharge is still coming at them at the speed of light.

    Yeah, it's really strange to consider, especially when it's also moving at the same constant velocity with respect to the stationary source.

    It never has seemed right, but that's what I was taught. :(

    The second death star being completed sooner was a combination of better techniques and the fact that it was begun BEFORE the first was destroyed. Why build one uber-weapon when you can make 2, or 4, etc.
     
  5. The Magpie

    The Magpie Balance, in all things Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,300
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    I think you're on dubious ground trying to use Special Relativity to justify Star Wars! Anything moving faster than light (FTL) is unphysical, for starters. But if - somehow - you could do it, it would be using physics beyond our current understanding of how relativity works, and I doubt whether one would be able to rely upon all of the old physics about light in Inertial Frames.

    As a sidenote, light is always seen travelling at the same speed because one's length & time scales change to ensure it. The Newtonian view of the universe hass Space & Time as absolutes (i.e. A meter is always 1 meter long, regardless of one's velocity), whereas SR has the speed of light as unchanging. Effectively, Space & Time "bend" to ensure this is the case: in a faster-moving Inertial Frame, the length of all measuring sticks contracts and time dilates, so all observers measure the speed of light in vacuo as the same thing.

    And I think that the weapons hitting the falcon were only doing so while it was accelerating toward hyperspace, anyway :p
     
  6. Bion Gems: 21/31
    Latest gem: Pearl


    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,356
    Likes Received:
    2
    Absolutely. Lucas' talent isn't really in fleshing out a scifi universe in the kind of detail a novel requires; that's probably why he ripped off so much of Herbert's Dune (with a half-hearted attempt to cover his tracks), and then got a whole bunch of journeymen scifi/fantasy authors on board to try to expand on this universe. In other words, relative to other scifi universes out there, Star Wars is juryrigged, and there are a bunch of gaping holes in the science and cultures it portrays (not to mention some of the worse names in scifi history: Naboo, Count Dooku, Darth Sidious, even Porkins from ANH). Then again, Star Wars is a far more important movie than, say, David Lynch's version of Dune.

    So did you get "Death Rabbit" from the Delta Sigs then?
     
  7. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    6,284
    Likes Received:
    271
    Gender:
    Male
    Star Wars isn't really a science fiction venue -- as I've said before, it's a fantasy that is set in space. The science, such as it is, is unique to the "galaxy far far away" and amusingly internally inconsistent. But so are all myths and fantasies -- no one asks WHY the troll lives under the bridge in the Billy Goats story, nor is the virginity requirement for a dragon's sacrifice explained (in most tellings, anyhow). It's pure fantasy that Lucas used as a simple vehicle to tell his myth of family, politics, love, redemption, and dynastic progression.
     
  8. Sydax Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    0
    DR stops in 8, I have a question too:

    9- Why Obi doesn't know that 'there's another' hope, looks like he doesn't know that Luke has a sister, and he was there at Leia birth.

    10- Han claims to have the fastest ship, also we see X-Wings and 2 or 3 other ship models but in episodes I, II and III we see lots of new models and even faster ships.
     
  9. Kam Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Falcon is supposed to be the fastest ship in the galaxy, maybe. More likely, that's just a little bit of exaggeration on Han Solo's part. Even if it is the fastest though, that would probably only be in hyperspace. At sublight speeds, it's nothing really great.

    As for the other fighters and stuff, realistically, a Y-Wing would leave a Jedi Starfighter or Naboo Crapfighter in the dust, and anyone who's played Rogue Leader knows how slow Y-Wings are. The reason they look faster is simply better special effects between the original Trilogy and the new ones.
     
  10. Lazy Bonzo Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    1,861
    Likes Received:
    1
    Kam summed up what I was going to say about Han exaggerating to clinch the deal and just generally to impress. One can justify that ships flew faster in Eps 1-3 than 4-6 as being another feature of the change in technology.

    Basically x-wings, y-wings etc and the rest of the rebel alliance's ships aren't made using top-notch materials anymore, they're rebels so they can't just nip to the local Imperial shopping mall to pick up a couple of super-light speed engines for their new shiny ships. However the Empire could have had problems with regards the fighting, as I understand it between 3 and 4 there's a lot of fighting to quell uprisings and generally try to hold onto the empire so the best ships are going to have to be replaced with faster mass-produced ships.

    Considering that the Empire was most likely focussing on getting the Death Star operational they were less worried about fast ships and were happy with slower but cheaper and easier to produce craft.

    So the Falcon may not be particularly fast with regards Ep 1-3 but by the time of Ep 4-6 all the other ships have also become slower. I'm basically saying that 'fast' is relative and becomes slower between Ep 3 and 4.

    :tie:
     
  11. Sydax Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's a very good point.
     
  12. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    Messages:
    6,103
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    239
    Gender:
    Male
    @ Bion

    No, Death Rabbit is based on a BG2 character I made once - a beligerant halfling barbarian. Long story, I'm sure I've told it in a few other threads. My fraternity nickname was "#4," because I'm the 4th guy in my family to become a member of my particular chapter.
    I believe this is because Leia grows up to become a politician, and we all could gather from the prequels that Obiwan has a pretty deep-seated mistrust of politicians. This predeliction was certainly cemented with the betrayal of Palpatine, I'm sure. I believe he sees politicians as morally suspect and deceptive by nature, to virtues a die-hard Jedi like Obiwan doesn't seem likely to stomach. IMO, he probably just didn't think Leia had it in her, and hence didn't consider her as a possibility.
     
  13. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    May 29, 2003
    Messages:
    13,341
    Likes Received:
    95
    I think he just being dramatic - to see what Yoda would say. We don't really get to hear his whole conversation with Yoda on Dagobah so don't know what else they talked about.
     
  14. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    Well...once the whipped up the whole "oh, the Kessel run involves flying by a few dozen closely grouped black holes" idea, it sorta started making sense.
     
  15. Kam Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, the Y-Wing was a top of the line fighter in its day, which would presumably be between Ep. 4 and 5. The X-Wing is THE space superiority fighter until the TIE Defender is created. If Imperial ships did slow down after the Clone Wars, why weren't the Rebs flying surplus Naboo and Jedi Starfighters?

    Simple: they were obsolete. I stand by my statement that it's just the differance in special effects capabilities. Take a look at the redone scenes in the OT. The X-Wings look a lot faster there. A Z-95 Headhunter would probably fly circles around a Jedi fighter. They're certainly much more heavily armed.
     
  16. JSBB Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2003
    Messages:
    4,054
    Likes Received:
    1
    @ AMaster - that is one of the main rationalizations that I have often :lol: at.
     
  17. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,305
    Media:
    610
    Likes Received:
    158
    Gender:
    Male
    How's this? Count Dooku owns Obi-Wan a second time. Then Anakin promptly owns Count Dooku. Yet Obi-Wan holds his own against Anakin, and ends up owning him.

    Now ... I realize this was necessary for Anakin to become Darth, but still. There's been plenty of overhead jumps without losing your arms and legs in this series of movies. Big deal about the high ground. Why not jump off to the side? Just sticks in my craw a little.
     
  18. Big B Gems: 27/31
    Latest gem: Emerald


    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2001
    Messages:
    2,521
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] Sorry, got to make this quick, but it wouldn't be right if I didn't reply ;)

    1) Sifo Dyas...obviosuly never explained, we can best conclude it was Dooku using the name of a dead Jedi Master. Conspiracy theories of Anakin, Palps, even Mace have been set aside. Dooku was once a Jedi. Yoda and Obi-Wan agree only a Jedi could have erased the Kamino files. So it seems either Sifo Dyas (the legit Jedi who died around the time of TPM) was either forced to erase the files or his untimely death somehow allowed Dooku an opportunity to use his name to order the clones. Either way, I agree this should have been cleared up better. And it is a storytelling fault within the prequels, that could have been better addressed with some sharper storytelling, i.e. combining the characters of Dooku and Grievous to have more time to flesh stuff like this out. As it is it works, but near as efficient or as clean as it could be.

    2) The first Death Star is the first attempt at doing anything on that grand of scale, it takes time to get it right. There may have even been political set-backs. The second Death Star was purposely smaller and incomplete, thus needing less time. You add on the fact that it's the second time around, so they know what they are doing and can do it faster. Plus, it is reasonable to assume that Palps is a sneaky enough weasel that he had secretly begun construction on a second Death Star before the first one ever blew up.

    3) Palps uses aliens to get him into power, then he crushes them beneath his heel once he is in power. What can you expect from a Sith Lord?

    4) I will always believe that the majority of stormtroopers are clones and that every officer is a human. However, I can also believe that the Empire would be paranoid enough to have human stormtroopers scattered throughout contingents to keep "an eye" on the clones and provide human insight to tactical situations as well. We're talking a majority of clones as stormtroopers with some humans sprinkled in here and there. The bigger question is once the Fett clones grow too old, who gets cloned next?

    5) We see Kashyyk fall to Imperial rule in RotS. It is safe to assume Chewbacca is not welcome there unless he's going to be a slave. Would you rather be an indebbted partner to the guy who saved you from slavery, or still be in slavery to the Imperials. Don't forget the qoute from ANH "Where are you taking this thing?"

    6) Sir Bel said it best, the sun does murder on the skin. I always thought Shmi looked beautiful, but also rugged, and older than her age. Such is the life on Tatooine.

    7) It would be cool to know what significance the name Vader has, but then again, we can wonder the significance of Maul, Sidious, and Dooku as well.

    8) Purple is a good cross between red and blue. Plus, Sam just wanted a purple one. Lucky for him purple is a cross between red and blue. I would want an orange one. But I wonder what that would symbolize?
     
  19. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    6,284
    Likes Received:
    271
    Gender:
    Male
    As nerdy as this topic is, I still have to keep posting -- it's an addiction!

    One line from ANH has an Imperial officer saying that the Rebellion is "too well armed, too well equipped." Technology has possibly declined since the Empire formed, but I think it more likely that it's the change in OUR technology that accounts for the differences in ships between the trilogies.

    Oh, and as for the Falcon, "0.5 over the Big L" is a meaningless statement, as we don't know what kind of scale is in use -- does each 0.1 mean 10 times the spead of light? 100 times? The Richter scale is something like this. It just sounds good. All we need know is that the galaxy can be spanned fairly quickly (TESB -- "If they made the jump to lightspeed, they could be halfway across the galaxy by now")
     
  20. Kam Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    0
    After the Clone Wars, cloning was forbidden. Even the Empire didn't do it. That's why, in Heir to the Empire, it's such a big deal for Thrawn to find a working set of Spaarti cylinders. By the time the clones would have aged beyond usefulness, Palpatine would have strengthened his rule enough to make forced conscription a viable option. And of course, there were always plenty of young kids looking for adventure willing to visit their local Imperial recruiter.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.