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SP guide error?

Discussion in 'BG2: Shadows of Amn (Classic)' started by jamoecw, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. jamoecw Gems: 1/31
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  2. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    That's a very old submitted guide, though generally Ragusa knew what he was talking about, so it seems odd. Maybe it only applies to certain specific leather armours?
     
  3. CamDawg

    CamDawg The gaze of the Wolf reaches into our soul Veteran

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    No, it's just wrong.
     
  4. jamoecw Gems: 1/31
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    elven chain seems accurate, hide armor comes with some penalties, but they aren't fully correct in the guide. then there is the bonus with no armor, which seems odd. i know there are some armors that have hidden penalties (not listed in item description). so maybe there are penalties that didn't make it into the character page due to coding oversight, or maybe those numbers come from the AD&D PHB.
     
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Ragusa hasn't been around for some time but you can try PMing him and pointing him to this thread, I hope he'd want to fix any errors.
     
  6. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    If you look at the "Why Thieves Rule" page he mentions that Assassins can only be evil or chaotic neutral, which is not the case in BG2. This suggests that he was drawing on knowledge from both the game and actual D&D, perhaps the PHB or the old BG2 manual which itself used the PHB as a direct source and was inaccurate on some points. Probably the latter imo.
    I guess he didn't bother to verify it since it's not particularly game-affecting, but yeah. Thieving penalties weren't implemented except for Hide Armors and and a few other specific armors.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
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  7. CamDawg

    CamDawg The gaze of the Wolf reaches into our soul Veteran

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    They come from the PHB, but it was never implemented that way.

    Wearing any heavy armor (chain+) simply disables thieving outright, which is why you don't see any penalties. though there are the handful of exceptions you've noted. Elven chain allows thieving, with the listed penalties, as does hide armor, also with its listed penalties. Leather/studded leather/robes all allow thieving without penalties. There is no bonus for unarmored/robes.

    If you'd like it to work as P&P, you'll need a mod such as BG2 Tweaks' "Allow Stealth and Thieving Abilities in Heavy Armor per P&P" component.
     
  8. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Greetings, and in particular to Taluntain.

    The point with the armours is that we (and that was Extremist and me) were not using the game guide (which is wrong on both points) but we read the values as they were written in the infinity engine.

    That goes for both the armours and the thief sub-classes.

    Since we did that more than a decade ago, I can't remember in all detail how we did it, but if I am not extremely mistaken we used Near Infinity; I vaguely recall using a Hex Editor also.

    http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IEmodding/

    Cheers,
    Ragusa
     
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  9. CamDawg

    CamDawg The gaze of the Wolf reaches into our soul Veteran

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    Only elven chain and hide armor have penalties. All other armor either allows without penalty or disallows outright, and there's no unarmored bonus.
     
  10. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Is that so?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
  11. SlickRCBD Gems: 24/31
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    If it isn't, it doesn't show up on the in-game interfaces, but the few exceptions like elfin chain DO show the penalties. I confess I never looked at the hide armor for penalties, although I should.
     
  12. jamoecw Gems: 1/31
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    thank you it has been most helpful.
     
  13. Yoshimo's Heart Gems: 13/31
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    Hmm everybody is using the Tolkien spelling for elven is that how it is spelled in the game (I have not looked)?

    I think with elven chain I know it has a penalty in the EE version but did it have it in the original? I ask because I noticed that items such as the melodic chain did not say they gave penalties in original BG2 but I did not look to see if it gave penalties anyway.
     
  14. jamoecw Gems: 1/31
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    i never really thought about my spelling, though the only other spelling i know of is the old celtic/germanic one which is elfin, so it probably is tolkien's.

    original BG i think lacked elven chain without mods and such, i could be wrong. in BG2 melodic chain and such that don't say that they give penalties do in fact give penalties, there is even a bard only elven chain that gives penalties to thieves that you can't even wear as a thief until ToB.
     
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    Wouldn't the bard one have a need to give penalties to pick pockets, a skill that all bards have to one degree or another?
    They probably just copied over the effects. I'm positive the developers did NOT use TeamBG's Infninity Editor Pro, let alone DLTCEP since those programs didn't come around until after the games were released, especially DLTCEP.
     
  16. jamoecw Gems: 1/31
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    it makes sense, given that they used an elven chain instead of normal chain that means it wouldn't have a penalty to pick pockets unless they added it. so it was probably easier to just copy and modify an existing elven chain. though this is pure conjecture. needless to say though some armors give penalties without it being in the description:

    BG2+ToB:
    hide armor - listed
    elven chain - described
    elven chain+1 - described
    sylvan chain+2 - unlisted
    melodic chain+3 - unlisted
    bladesinger chain+4 - unlisted
    aslyferund elven chain+5 - unlisted
    dark elven chain - described
    drow elven chain+3 - described
    drow elven chain+5 - described
    shadow armor - listed
    night's gift+5 - listed
    human flesh+5 - unlisted

    BG1:
    shadow armor - listed
    hide armor - described

    IWD:
    elven chainmail of the hand+3 - unlisted
    chainmail armor (KAYCHAI.ITM) - unlisted
    shadow armor - listed
    mourner's armor - listed
    studded leather+1 shadowed - listed
    studded leather+2 shadowed - listed
    studded leather+4 shadowed - listed
     
  17. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    What is Drizzt's armor listed?
     
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