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So who didn't take Imoen?

Discussion in 'BG2: Shadows of Amn (Classic)' started by Sylvus Moonbow, Dec 4, 2000.

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  1. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    [​IMG] Ahhh... What an enjoyable debate :)

    Draco - You mistake my argument. I wasn't comparing Imoen to Sarevok; I was using Sarevok to illustrate the fact that sharing the blood of Bhaal garnered no special treatment from any of you, so the "family" arguments are irrelevant in my view.

    The "friend" angle is far more compelling, and I don't see Grub's treatment of Imoen as inconsistent with that of a good aligned friend.

    He did not leave her to rot in Irenicus' dungeon nor did he harm her in any way; quite to the contrary, he rescued her!

    I don't see anything wrong with Grub telling Imoen that he believes the quest for justice or vengeance would proceed better without her. After all, he has been apart from her for 2 months or so, and has experienced much with another group of friends without her. To say that Imoen is more important to the party than these others simply because she was there first holds no sway with me.

    And what a horrible fate he sentenced her to! Take you ease in the Copper Coronet while we continue the quest to get your soul back for you... Some could say she got the better end of the deal!

    And your comparison with Star Wars is not compelling; Luke and Leia did not quest together the whole time, they each had their own role to play in their common struggle and were apart for much of the time. Grub is doing the "right" thing; he is simply not doing it with Imoen...
     
    Blackthorne TA, Dec 6, 2000
    #41

  2. Draco Vlasavius Gems: 11/31
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    Blackthorne, you've apparently convinced yourself regarding the 'abandonment' of Imoen. No problem, we all seek justification when searching for the 'good' feeling that we are in 'the right'. Either you are missing some of the facts about Star Wars that I was bringing into the debate or you are ignoring them. Such as Bhaal... Darth Vader.... Fathers of " "... ok, you get the point.

    Away from the party for 2 WHOLE MONTHS, wow. Total strangers after 2 WHOLE MONTHS. "What's your name again" ??? "Oh yeah, Imoen. Sorry I forgot it's been 2 WHOLE MONTHS..." C'mon. Whether friends or family they were raised in the same small community and shared dozens of battles and quests before meeting up with BG2 NPC's. Trapped, caged and tortured together. Escaped together, etc. etc. etc.

    You can slice it anyway you wish, but it is a game. So play it as you like, you purchased it and you own it! However without going into any tedious details, the dialogue from the start of the game all the way to the end (including the overall theme of the game) surrounds your MAIN character and IMOEN. If you choose to ignore that dialogue, game script, quests related to and theme of BG2 then yes, I can actually agree with your views or Syl's (Grub) character. Otherwise, it won't add up for me. Again, no problem -we all can enjoy the game nonetheless!

    :) (:

    -Draco Vlasavius



    [This message has been edited by Draco Vlasavius (edited December 06, 2000).]
     
    Draco Vlasavius, Dec 6, 2000
    #42
  3. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    [​IMG] Heh, heh! Again you mistake me :) I'm not saying it was the best solution or even one that I personally would choose (in fact I wanted to have Imoen back). I am saying that it's an understandable position and one not inconsistent with playing a good aligned role.

    I believe that the amount of time we spent adventuring with Imoen in BG1 is comparable to the two months; but that was a long time ago, so I could be mistaken... I'm not saying that he doesn't know her any more; just that he believes he can carry out his mission better without her.

    All of your arguments for why you should keep Imoen are valid, but they are also true of the new friends you've been adventuring with.

    Grub had his reasons, and I'm simply saying I believe them to be valid in a roleplaying sense.

    Your parallels with regard to Star Wars are also valid, but I'm saying that they don't justify your position that Grub should bring on Imoen no matter what. Again, Luke and Leia did not feel compelled to stay together, they both did what they thought was necessary to achieve their mutual goal, and if that meant parting for a while then so be it.

    And just because Imoen is central to the story doesn't mean she should be a member of the party.

    [This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited December 06, 2000).]
     
    Blackthorne TA, Dec 6, 2000
    #43

  4. Shura Gems: 25/31
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    No offense, Syl, but Grub does not sound terribly bright, even for a half orc.
     
    Shura, Dec 6, 2000
    #44

  5. Draco Vlasavius Gems: 11/31
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    OK. It seems that 'some' share a different view of Role-Playing that I do. My Role-Playing with the Baldur's Gate series encompasses a wider and inclusive view of all characters & NPC's with their individual histories. I believe the designers have this view as well because we find many characters and various dialogues that 'unite' BG1 & BG2. The designers have established a history for our characters and the NPC's we happenchance upon in the game. I've visited other boards from the first week that I purchased my copy of the game and realize there are Power Gamer's & Role-Players (Veteran and Newbies) everywhere. But I thoroughly enjoy many of the posts here. I started here as a board member with IWD some time back and have been a regular since. In veiw of many posts here and elsewhere I (my opinion) classify myself as a true veteran Role-Player that goes back to the original Players Handbook and Monster Manual.

    I believe our view surrounding Imoen actually lies within the realm of 'how we approach the game'. Power Gaming or Role-Play Gaming.

    I cannot 'convince' someone who wishes to believe something else. Nor do I want to, it's not my 'destiny'. But I do enjoy thinking and promoting thinking within others about many subjects. Sooooo with that said, enjoy BG2 - I CAN'T WAIT for NWN, IWD2(expansion) and BG3! Perhaps in time... our views will be more 'similar'. Then again... :)
     
    Draco Vlasavius, Dec 6, 2000
    #45
  6. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Heh! Awww... Is the debate over then? I was actually enjoying myself! You are a worthy opponent Draco :)

    I also harken back the the orignal DM's Guide, Players Handbook and Monster Manual and even back to the original boxed kit for D&D.

    But as far as BG1 united with BG2, I think it would have been better had the developers allowed us to indicate which NPCs we had travelled with and what skills we had developed in them in BG1. Perhaps then Syl and others would feel more of a connection with the Imoen and the others from BG1 in BG2. But of course that is far too much work to expect.

    And just to make it clear once again: I was playing devil's advocate because nobody else would :)
     
    Blackthorne TA, Dec 6, 2000
    #46

  7. Sylvus Moonbow Gems: 21/31
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    And what makes Grub not as bright as compared too...?! Nothing "not too bright" about it. Grub has valid reasons for not taking Imoen and if she was supposed to go along, they would have forced her on all of us and made her tag along. Thankfully, that choice was given and Grub had no reason to take her along.

    Payment done. Imoen and Grub are even. Nothing more, nothing less. Grub didn't grow up with her in Candlekeep, my Paladin from BG1 did so her ranting and raving to Grub is more than problematic. It's down right scary.

    Syl...
     
    Sylvus Moonbow, Dec 6, 2000
    #47

  8. Sorl Guest

    I hope you didn't waste too much int points on Grub (though I'm gonna be playing a Half-Orc mage sooner or later, just to proove all those racist ideas about dumb half orc wrong).

    To Imoen: There are good reasons for leaving her: after all she's been throug she certainly deserves to take some time out.

    I took her and left Nalia, but that girl helped me against the umber hulks even though she wasn't in the party no more (that broke my heart :().
    So I dropped Jan (my bloody character tells him to stay in hte asylum instead of going back home (thats shitty :mad:, so I'll replay coming to the asylum without him)).

    I got
    Sorl the sorc(12)
    Jaheira(12)
    Valygar(11)
    Viconia(12)
    Nalia(12)
    Imoen(11)

    I would have dropped Jaheira because I still haven't got a good weapon for her (2 profs in clubs) but she's too good with her evocation spells to change her for anyone but a cleric/priest.
     
    Sorl, Dec 6, 2000
    #48

  9. Boon Gems: 4/31
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    I decided to keep imoen when I rescued her on the basis it did not make any sense plotwise not to. Besides she was a reasonable replacement for Yoshi if you give her a few magical items, she can still cut it as a thief. Also if you consider that when you get her back she is always only one level behind the main character it is not that hard for her to cath up.
     
    Boon, Dec 6, 2000
    #49

  10. Erran Gems: 19/31
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    [​IMG] I guess there are nearly as many views of "right" and "loyalty" as there are players.
    All I know is that, when NWN gets up and rolling I hope I get to adventure with characters like Mobeus and Draco who share similar world - views to Erran rather than a Syl/Grub who'll dump me if my xps drop below standard.
     
    Erran, Dec 6, 2000
    #50
  11. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    [​IMG] Ha! Ha! Ha! I love this! :D

    I think most of you misconstrue Grub's reasons for not accepting Imoen back. And he didn't dump her, she was abducted. :)
     
    Blackthorne TA, Dec 6, 2000
    #51

  12. Sylvus Moonbow Gems: 21/31
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    Well Erran, if it's NWN you'll be playing, hit www.alandfaraway.net and sign up your vaulted character as soon as you can. Limited spots are still available in the largest recreation of the Forgotten Realms for all of NWN projects. Over 50 DMs available for your playing enjoyment and if Mobeus and Draco arrive as well, then we'll all have a blast.

    The only downside for you. I'm a DM of the worst dungeon ever created in the realms and of course, the worst city ever designed.

    Undermountain and Skullport.

    I wish you three well on my server. <evil grin>

    Syl...
     
    Sylvus Moonbow, Dec 6, 2000
    #52
  13. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    [​IMG] Heh! Now Syl, you wouldn't single them out for any "special treatment" now would you? ;)
     
    Blackthorne TA, Dec 6, 2000
    #53

  14. Sylvus Moonbow Gems: 21/31
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    Here's your answer:

    The first person I kill will be Sorcerer!

    LOL!

    Syl...
     
    Sylvus Moonbow, Dec 6, 2000
    #54
  15. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I just KNEW that one was coming. Damn bastard'll probably ambush me with a horde of gibberlings which my level 1 sorcerer won't be able to handle.
    He's like that. He'd leave me die of embarrasment.
    Hmm. Maybe I'll just make a new char and name him Grub the Wormheaded, the undead Orc horror just to honor my lovely DM to be.

    :D

    [This message has been edited by Taluntain (edited December 06, 2000).]
     
    Taluntain, Dec 6, 2000
    #55

  16. Septic Yogurt Gems: 9/31
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    Syl is right though, stupid bitch cast a spell she didn't have memorised AND in a magic hating country, they did know they were in Amn I belive.
     
    Septic Yogurt, Dec 6, 2000
    #56
  17. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    *Sigh*
    A mage casting the simplest level 1 spell when she doesn't have it memorized just for the sake of the intro sequence seems so minor to me that I've been watching all this fuss over it with a only a mild interest. I mean, all this talk about role-play and you can't allow for the possibilty that a mage could cast the simplest spell without having it in her spellbook?

    Come on.
    And no, when they got out they had NO idea they were in Amn. Especially if you turned Yoshimo down in the dungeon.

    So, :rolleyes:
     
    Taluntain, Dec 6, 2000
    #57
  18. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Heh, heh... Very true :)

    I was pretty neutral about the whole thing until just about everyone disagreed with Syl's position, and Syl declined to take up the gauntlet.

    I never could resist a good debate from the underdog's position :D
     
    Blackthorne TA, Dec 6, 2000
    #58

  19. Mobeus Gems: 5/31
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    [​IMG] Rats!! Looks like we've just about run this subject into the ground! (Who started all this anyway??! <g> )

    Actually, I totally agree with you guys. I also like a good friendly debate (Gosh, we ARE all still friends, aren't we?) In truth, I can see and support practically any viewpoint under the right conditions. That's one of the things that RPGs are all about--pick a side/decision and carry it out.
    Next time, pick the other side. It's great!

    Although, I didn't think Syl was the underdog! At least, not at first. In fact, for a while, I was beginning to feel like the Christmas snowman on the first day of spring! ;)

    :D :)
     
    Mobeus, Dec 7, 2000
    #59

  20. Crazy J Gems: 6/31
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    Even if your character wasn't in BG1, he or she did grow up in Candlekeep. There's refrences to it throughout the game, about Gorion being your character's stepfather. Firkraag mentions it, for instance, and your character's dreams are full or images of the place. So it had to figure in your character's life.
     
    Crazy J, Dec 7, 2000
    #60
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