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Should I align with Bodhi's Guild or the Shadow Thieves?

Discussion in 'BG2: Shadows of Amn (Classic)' started by Sepaen Thunderbow, May 9, 2003.

  1. pplr Gems: 18/31
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    They strike me as evil in different ways.

    Note that the 2nd Shadow Thief mission has you killing a couple of members for the crime of switching sides, one of which is among the few good aligned Shadow Thieves.

    If the Shadow Thieves were like Robin Hoods of Amn I'd be all for helping them. But they aren't.

    And I suspect some of the people that said the Shadow Thieves were "good" didn't take a hard look at what they do.

    Did you edit your last comment? When I responded I though I was doing so to the suggestion that the Shadow Thieves were "gooder". I don't mind if you thought of a better way to say what you ment I was just responding to a slightly different point.

    When doing the Role-playing angle there are mental arguments you could use for helping either side. An evil cleric can join up with the Shadow Thieves too (note the various "Priest of Mask" guys).
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2009
  2. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Yes, i did edit, as i thought i was double posting... excuse my ignorance on editing incorrectly, (i think?), i am not the most patient person, or at least my wife thinks that way!:D

    I just like using the RP aspect when playing thru BG2 and would only side with the Blood-suckers if somehow I had a connection with the dead. Otherwise, i think aligning with the undead is alot more off pace than aligning with the thieves, who are living beings. For example, i could envision a city watch fighting alongside thieves, to stop an undead invasion. But i could not see the city watch fighting alongside undead to clear the sewers of some thieves. Does that make sense?:skeptic:
     
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    No problem with the editing.

    About the undead. About any follower of Kelemvor would want to take out Bodhi.

    About any Paladin would refuse to work with either group (Keldorn only does so with grumbling when you join the Shadow Thieves).

    If there was an Undead invasion even the shopkeepers in the streets would likely help as anyone who wants to make it through the night alive would help in that case.

    Bodhi isn't launching an invasion of Amn however. Her attacks seem to be mostly directed at the Shadow Thieves (SPOILER coming), you, and the elves (both of the last two are part of the storyline).

    As this seems to mainly just be a fight between two groups of bad guys (during chapter 2) there is actually a degree of freedom people can feel they have when picking a side.

    This freedom is also reflected by the fact that you can give different answers to Drizzt or the Order when asking for help fighting Bodhi after you joined her faction. The different answers could be viewed as excuses or as different levels of moral thinking when trying to explain yourself.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2009
  4. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    If your just picking sides, you really don't know what either sides plans are other than what they are telling you. But the thieves are saying a rival guild is stepping on their turf and killing or recruiting their members. Even a good character can relate to that and want to stop a group of Vampires from slaughtering the living and creating more Vamps. But what's Bohdi's explanation for hiring you? She's out for slaughter or vegence, not protecting her own. So my goody-goody party would not be inclined to help her at all. Neither would a neutral group i believe. An all-evil party, they could go either way.
     
  5. pplr Gems: 18/31
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    Actually a good party could be concerned about the worse things relating to the Shadow Thieves such assassinations, involvement in the slave trade, or the fact that they seem likely to take over and corrupt so many things and places to one degree or another.

    A neutral party wouldn't really feel pushed one way or another unless druids in it are worried about unnatural creatures, and there may not be any druids in the party.

    You're right about evil folks going for either.


    Note my argument for good parties is that they may view both sides as bad. So they may approach the situation from a neutral position.

    Also one of the few reasons a "good" party may be concerned about one group over another maintaining control over turf is if one group is much better for the people living innocently in that "turf". Given the number of muggers that randomly attack you in the most directly controlled district (the Docks) the Shadow Thieves influence in the city it doesn't appear at all that they are overly concerned with the welfare of innocent people.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2009
  6. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Are we not forgetting the 3rd option here? Can't you also go the way of the Cowled Wizards?
     
  7. pplr Gems: 18/31
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    That would make for an interesting mod but I haven't heard of it nor seen it in the vanilla game.

    Someone made a mod that allowed for a third option in the form of someone making power plays against the council but I don't know of the relationship between this person and the Cowled Wizards.

    Though there is a debate over if the Cowled Wizards should be viewed as Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil. They don't generally help society enough (note the lack of concern for the situation in the Umar Hills) to be Lawful Good. And they don't display a concern for justice (Imoen being taken for just trying to defend herself).

    But they do follow the letter of the law (lawful neutral), though in an cruel manner (lawful evil).

    I think I was editing my last reply as you added yours, not much changed but I mentioned/summed up a couple of things.
     
  8. Fly2tHeSkY

    Fly2tHeSkY Southern Comfort Veteran

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    Well I think most people knew the Shadow Thieves weren't a bunch of goody-goody Robin-Hood-Like thieves in the first place. I mean, look at the Docks. They have complete control over an entire district in one of the largest cities in Faerun and no one really does anything about it. Maybe because they pay off the government, or maybe because they pose a big enough threat for the government to just stay out of their way. Either way, a group that specialises in assassinations, thievery, slavery, distribution of illicit substances and blackmail MEANS they're evil.

    I suppose as a LAWFUL good character, it would be hard to choose a side, although considering one of the sides is made up entirely of psycho vampires, the choice isn't really that hard. Especially seeing as how you only want to get Imoen back/find Irenicus.

    You could make the argument that they're only using you, so why side with them in the first place? Well YOU'RE using them at the same time TBH. Also, if you were worried about getting betrayed... Well! A group of thieves or a group of vampires - Who would you trust?
     
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    I'd side with the evil that talks less. Bodhi's a poor vampire, can't suck much blood if she can't keep her mouth closed.

    Of course she might just lap it up, like a good lap-dog. Heh, she might have amazing skills with her tongue.

    ...but, even if you take her side, she blabbers way too much. The less I get to see those lengthy monologues, the better.
     
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    Probably neither. And if a Chaotic or Neutral Good character intends to betray and attack whatever side you join after returning with Imoen you may as well flip a coin.

    Gealyn Boyle was wrong (lied?) when he said there was nobody else/no other way to get Imoen back than through the Shadow Thieves.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2009
  11. Fly2tHeSkY

    Fly2tHeSkY Southern Comfort Veteran

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    He probably knew the Vampires wanted to use you also, but WHY would he give you another option??? THEY want to use you, so what would be the point of asking you to choose between what you think is the better offer?
     
  12. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    It is a tough call to make. Especially for a good party. I've read the arguments, but there is another line of thinking.

    Both sides are inherently evil. So it's difficult to decide which side to choose to serve the "greater good". However, he's something else to consider:
    The Shadow Thieves are a major power in Athkatla. That the guards let them have free reign of the Docks district says they must have some influence on the Council. It is strongly implied that corruption is commonplace in that city, and the Council might be allowing the Shadow Thieves to operate as they will in return for kickbacks. I can't see the guards or the Council letting a bunch of Vampires move in and set up shop turning the people. So, I could side with the Vampires to weaken the thieves, then tip off the city watch to the location of the Vampire infestation. Perhaps even get some help to wipe out both sides. Use the vamps to deal with the Shadow Theif threat. Keep in mind how the people in the Bridge district and the Docks kept complaining about the Shadow Thieves. They are as much of a threat as Bodi.
     
  13. Fly2tHeSkY

    Fly2tHeSkY Southern Comfort Veteran

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    The Shadow Thieves DO have a considerable amount of influence on the Council of Six (most probably because they were all former merchants?) so I'm guessing if the vampire 'infestation' became too strong, the guards actually might be called in to help...
     
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    [​IMG] That's exactly my line of thinking. Siding with Bodhi lets you take out both of them. First you weaken the Shadow Thieves enough that they get the Council to take action against the vamps. It's obvious the Council and the Guard won't do anything about the thieves, but they might do something about the vampires.
     
  15. Iku-Turso Gems: 26/31
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    But first, if [charname] thinks far enough, all other evil rivalling guilds and thieving factions should be destroyed as well.

    This actually gives a good reason for a good aligned [charname] to take up on Renal Bloodscalp's offer...
     
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    From what we can see, the only two guilds in the city are Bodhi's and the Shadow Thieves. Granted, the source isn't exactly trustworthy, but it is strongly implied that the Shadow Thieves had already stamped out most of the competition.

    Effectively, those two factions are the only ones in town. Removing both of them would strike a great blow to organized crime. Hopefully the power vacuum from removing those two would cause enough infighting to allow some semblance of law and order to be restored, especially to the docks.
     
  17. Iku-Turso Gems: 26/31
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    *a-hem* ...Mae'Var's guild... (Hey, that's what it's called...)

    But yeah, effectively there's just two criminal guilds...true. But IIRC you can become as the only leader of the only criminal guild in town if you play a thief. (but this required a mod or a tweak or fixpack or something so you can join with Bodhi even if you're a thief, but hey, you can always dualclass before you talk to Bodhi, that ought to do the trick...)
     
  18. olimikrig

    olimikrig Cavalier of War Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Remember that you aren't destroying the Shadow Thieves, just the Atkathlan branch. So effectively as soon you've killed Bodhi they can just start building up again.

    There's also mention of a third guild that Mae'Var is working with.
     
  19. Fly2tHeSkY

    Fly2tHeSkY Southern Comfort Veteran

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    That would be the Night Knives. They wanted to expand because Westgate was getting too full and they wanted to expand their influence. Apparently.
     
  20. Proteus_za

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    I always side with the Shadow Thieves. They represent the better of the two options. They are at least mortal, like me, whereas the vampires are undead. No thanks.

    Besides, Aran Linvail is one of those likeable villains, a bad guy with a conscience and manners. Bodhi is just plain evil.
     
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