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Should East Prussia / Kaliningrad Oblast be returned to Germany?

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Arctic Daishi, May 10, 2013.

?

What should become of East Prussia / Kaliningrad Oblast?

  1. Kaliningrad Oblast should remain a Russian state.

    20.0%
  2. Kaliningrad Oblast should be returned to Germany.

    20.0%
  3. Kaliningrad Oblast should be given to Lithuania.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Kaliningrad Oblast should be given to Poland.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Kaliningrad Oblast should become independent / U.S. state.

    20.0%
  6. Other (state in reply)

    40.0%
  1. Arctic Daishi Gems: 6/31
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    I've heard of it, but never gotten around to playing it. Sadly, I do not have a computer at the moment. Thanks for the recommendation.
     
  2. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Hearts of Iron is very time-consuming and very addictive. Don't do it AD, your life will take a new path, trust me....
     
  3. Arctic Daishi Gems: 6/31
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    Sounds like my uncle Jonathan and Civilization II. I believe he also played Hearts of Iron back in the day, or at least, he owns it.
     
  4. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG]
    CivII was the very first computergame I ever played. It was very addictive at the time, but not worth playing anymore.
    EUII is totally different, and I played it even more than I played CivII.
     
  5. Heidrin Gems: 1/31
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    An interesting discussion, thank you for commenting. I am Heidrin from the home of the Naer. My grandfather is / was from there, Kaliningrad / Koenigsberg. My idea is to hand it over to itself, within the year, it is now 2015. We are the last descendants from the council dot pru. From governance and more. Together with my 1 cousin Nils, we are the 2 youngest "last ones" from then, before w war ii. it is in our powers to decide on the way ahead. We are from the people who founded and made the city in the first place eg. Hugo Albert N a teacher at the F college, and Caroline W N who built the first houses there. My great grandmother Olga Helene Katharine can be mentioned here too, just because her name sounds so beautiful. Semi independent we accept, with many languages incl. E. Int. schools from the German people, a long way together. The persons in governance, those in religious office, those in many more depts have letters in their hands, giving them the power to act. In this time we need the Catholic to be 1st, Orthodox Christians 2nd, Evangelish 3rd, Jewish 4th, and more and so on. I have handed this power to the politiciens , and I too wish to participate in this. Kaliningrad / Koenigsberg can be handed over even to myself, to us, in the interim. Find me, phone me. I am here, and ready to act. I am a facilitator and can work with ideas. a transition to form a new path and realies a vision, c'est possible.. For an international sustainability court we need this way. For Inge, who died for this. Love, Heidrun Inge.
     
  6. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    I voted other because:
    - Germany already officially accepted the "Oder-Neisse-Linie" as it´s permanent eastern border as a prerequisite for reunification
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder–Neisse_line
    So IF anything would be returned to Germany it would make far more sense to return Stettin and the eastern part of Usedom (who are on the left bank of the Oder)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder–Neisse_line#/media/File:UsedomWolin.png
    to Germany than a part of Prussia that has no landconnection to Germany.
    - If Russia in the future would be forced to give up Kaliningrad (be it to sell it in a need for cash just like Gorbatschew sold his permission for the reunification of Germany, or in need of allies in the west if China´s next annexation plans are not just some tiny islands in the the "western phillipinian sea"/south china sea but they would try to re-negotiate the Amur-treaties
    http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/china_ussr_e_88.jpg
    and demand Mongolia and Tannu-Tuwa) then it would be better placed under control of Brussels as an area under direct EU control.
     
  7. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Actually when the cite of an "army with a country"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Army#An_army_with_a_country
    became known the capital had been no longer Königsberg for quite a while.

    At that time the Markgraviate of Brandenburg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margraviate_of_Brandenburg#Hohenzollerns
    had inherited the Duchy of Prussia from their relatives and the state was ruled from Berlin from 1701 onward formally as "Brandenburg-Prussia" and commonly known simply as Prussia (because the kings derived their more prestigious "king" title from being "King in Prussia"). Königsberg only remained the provincial capital of one of the provinces of that state.

    That has been one of the arguments to NOT use Berlin as capital again after the re-unification (as it was Berlin from which most of the wars were waged including WW1 and 2) - but Chancellor Kohl chose to make it the capital again despite better (at least from a democratic or geographic middle of the country point of view) alternatives like Bonn, Weimar, Frankfurt or Mainz.

    Well, actually Brandenburg had been known and nicknamed as the "Streusandbüchse" (Sandbox with which ink was dried on letters?) of the Holy Roman Empire because of it´s sandy poor farmland and the Brandenburg Markgraves not only had to hire soldiers in neighbouring countries in the beginning for lack of suitable recruits at home but furthered agrarian development (e.g. by spreading the use of potatoes

    [​IMG]

    http://www.mightyheaton.com/2011/06/25/why-they-put-potatoes-on-frederick-the-greats-grave/
    and were tolerant enough to take in huge numbers of french huguenottes who fled for their lives from a France in which the catholic King persecuted them for their religion
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenot#Germany_and_Scandinavia
    and tolerance was one of the virtues of the then prussian state
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_virtues

    And from pre-german, germanic myths (from a time where the Anglosaxons were still living on the continent) and the example of italian fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Fascism
    which not only existed before the takeover of the Nazis but whose leader Benito Mussolini was one of the idols that Hitler adored for a long time.

    Well, from the point of view of Poland that is silly. Prussia had been a fief of the polish state before they had to cede their rights of it to Brandenburg-Prussia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Prussia#/media/File:Rzeczpospolita2nar.png
    and next to the german population there were polish and lithuanian minorities.
    Letting the Soviets take that area over as well as essentially install their pet government in Poland instead of the polish exile government in London (who wouldn´t agree to have the polish borders moved westward and to cede eastern Poland to the Soviets just as those had agreed with Hitler before WW2) was done because there was no way the Allies could stop the Soviets at that time and not because it was seen as right.

    It would have been justified to give the entirety of Prussia to Poland or the northern part to Lithuania (so that after Lithuanias independance there would be no russian exclave there).
     
  8. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    In reply to ConjurerDragon:
    Much like Americans hail their Anglosaxon cultural roots, and Anglosaxons consider Saxony to be their place of origin, Konigsberg has significance as the old capital of Prussia. Even though it wasn't during Prussia's hayday.
    Very ambitious. Well, you have stumbled into the right forum to achieve your goals. We possess the clout to beat Putin into submission and secure your ancestral homeland to your rule. But you understand that these goals cannot be met without money. I can loan you the millions you need, and your nation can repay me in time. All you need to do, is deposit $25,000 to the Prince's Bank of Nigeria. After establishing that you are trustworthy, I will create a treasury account for you worth $5 million, and provide you with contacts who will help you acquire weapons and conscripts. I can even arrange a meeting with Putin himself.
     
    damedog and pplr like this.
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    An old poll I just stumbled across. I think there is an interesting irony in current times (early 2022) since Putin is now trying to annex part or all of Ukraine (meaning the 2 areas he mentioned now are just 1 step in a multi step plan). Yes he is claiming to help 2 regions become separate states but wasn't a point of is speech that Russia should supposedly control all the territory that was formerly part of the Soviet Union? That can be taken as Putin wanting to land grab.

    It also means Putin is currently ignoring international agreements current Russia has been part of for decades.

    Putin would probably be against the idea of this bit of territory leaving Russia but is for Ukraine loosing parts of its territory that have been part of Ukraine for decades (if not arguably much longer).
     
  10. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    In the decade since this was posted Catalan voted for independence and when the leaders behind the move were all imprisoned, that was the end of that discussion. Growing up politically is realizing that most of Europe is under the thumb of soft authoritarianism.
     
  11. Heidrin Gems: 1/31
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    Dear forum,

    An update from me. Since my first comments here in 2015 much has happened.. i started an email campaign to the presidents of the world and various countries politely requesting independence for kaliningrad. This is dear to my heart as my great grandfather was a provincial administrator there. Then hitler came and fucked it all up and the prussians went bad and committed ww2 and the holocaust amongst other things. So when the soviets came to take over their lands they thought they were justified in doing so. Yet the lands must be returned to themselves in order to heal and to grow. Kaliningrad belongs to itself. Only then can it find balance and true interdependence. So anyway i wrote to many countries and here is what they said. 1. Russia explained to me how it belongs to them now and i shouldnt challenge them for their territory or else i ll be classed as an enemy of the state and as a wannabe separatist. 2. Latvians told me it's an interesting opinion and i have the right to my opinion. 3. The French took note of it. 4. The Canadians said maybe i have indigenous rights. And i do according to a genetic test i am even genetically from the baltic as a true original. So my words count. 5. The US chose not to respond as did many others.
    So now i have written some books as a next step and to prepare future generations for this. I wish the current people of kaliningrad well too and hope they will live in peace with others in the future as it slowly opens up. Or is taken over and handed over to itself as an independent country. My wish. Also it needs a new name Niaina the place of nowhere.
    All best wishes to all may you live long and happy lives.

    Ps
    Germany said i could write to Russia about it. I don't think there will be any future claims from Germany on kaliningrad. That is pretty much out of the question. Thanks for listening.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2023
  12. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Considering how long Berlin had been the capital (well, with the exception of the napoleonic invasion where the king of Brandenburg-Prussia and his family fled to East Prussia and resided in Königsberg) that would mean that the people from the US see LONDON as their true capital... Yes, Berlin has been the capital of the state of Brandenburg-Prussia for longer than the US independance and Königsberg had been only the provincial capital of Eastern Prussia between then and the end of the prussian state after WW2
     
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    Kaliningrad should become an independent state, a country in its own right. Please move on from its history, what matters now is its future. It is only with vision that this can be a success. Read my earlier statements on this thread for more insights. Thanks
     
  14. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Everyone is ignoring those agreements. Kosovo legally could and should never have become independant without the consent of the serbian state, yet it was done that way.
    Since then Putin mocks that legal failure of the western states e.g. in Georgia where he supported the "independence" of Abchasia and Ossetien?`from Georgia just like Kosovo from Serbia.

    And he will probably try the same in Ukraine, create "independant" "democracies" where the majority of the population is or was russian and after a few years have them democratically vote to join Mother Russia.
     
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    I think the only people who should have a say in what happens to East Prussia/Kaliningrad Oblast are the people who actually live there.
    If they want to be independent, they should secede. If they want to rejoin Germany, they should secede and rejoin Germany. If they want to remain with Russia, they can remain with Russia.
    A fair and open election is the only proper way settle the issue.
    Of course, I'm an American and I'm biased in letting the people decide for themselves what is in their best interest instead of letting other people decide for them based on their own interests rather than the interests of the people of East Prussia.
     
  16. Heidrin Gems: 1/31
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    Sorry to break this to you but that would be forgetting about the 14million german people who were expulsioned from the east after ww2 and the 600,000 who died on the move as well as ignoring that the soviets raped the german women to shit. This was in response to ww2 and the holocaust but still a crime against humanity and many civilians were affected by it. Those people should have the right to return under international law if anyone ever bothered to apply the laws properly in this world. But no, rape and explusions and russia taking over the lands won the day. Sickening.

    Ps i think your idea of a referendum is a good one but then the people who were from there originally should also be given a voice not just the people who were bussed in to take over the place once russia got in.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2023
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