Science vs. Religion

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I remember in science class in high school our teacher proved scientificly that a bumble bee could not fly. Just because something doesn't exist scientificly or has no rhyme or reason doesn't prove anything in this wonderful adventure we call a life.

 

But I have seen a bumble bee fly so I am fairly confident that they can. I have not conversed with God so I have less confidence that he created me in His image and that he wants me to do everything that it says for me to do in the Bible.

 

I was actually talking about faith in the teacher, because, despite what logic and you may say, the best scientific theories are usually NOT what is taught in school. The theory of evolution you find in most American high-schools is closer to Darwin's original thesis than to modern evolution, and we include such studies as the peppered moth one that was proven to be a sham IN THE 30'S!! This is faith. Perhaps more in the educational system than in the theory, but faith nonetheless.

 

Again, you judge science based on what someone who had a 9th grade science class knows. If you want to know what is and isn't good science, go to an expert. Go see what's taught in college, or better yet, graduate school.

On second thought, don't bother. I'm done with this.

 

Sounds like the American educational system could use a tuneup.

"Faith" in a teacher is still profoundly different from a religious faith. People swallow things either with an indifferent "well he probably knows his stuff" -basis, or are intellectually deceived by the false evidence. There is no inner conviction involved, no sense of "this is right and so it shall be for all time." If you give one of those high school students sufficient proof of the peppered moth being a hoax (side note: I've never heard of this peppered moth thing), they'll believe you. They won't cling to what "teacher said" with an unrelenting fervor, if you've got the evidence.

Unless they're whack jobs, of course.

 

It turned out that the guy running the 'experiment' had removed the moths that didn't fit his predictions and placed more moths in that do.

@Aldeth:
I wasn't judging science, I was judging school and the standart secular person who accepts whatever they're taught in school and whatever they see on the news as absolute fact. They may not be properly represented on this board, but a large number of people all over the world have great trouble thinking for themselves.

@Susipaisti:
The American school system has needed a tune-up for 30 years, but I've heard of this being taught in England and Germany as well, so that isn't just us. The evolutionists haven't been very quick to correct their mistake (~70 years anyone) and many have moved to silence those that point it out (sure the board of education knows its false, but it fits our theory and its cheaper, so why bother to fix it?)

Also, Susipaisti, if you could show me evidence the Bible was wrong, real evidence, I would convert. If you found the body of Jesus and could prove to me that it was his body, I would probably become the staunchest atheist on this board. History, however, leans to my side. More atheists have become christians by trying to disprove christianity than christians have become atheists by proof, many many more.

 

OK, I lied, I'm back.

And I wasn't judging faith in Jesus, I was judging religion, and the standard religious person who accepts whatever they're taught in church and whatever the priest/minister says as absolute fact. They may not be properly represented on this board, but a large number of people all over the world have great trouble thinking for themselves.

 

So we're in agreement here? Accepting what the teacher (be it high school or sunday school) says just because they said it is wrong, absolutely wrong, and this behavior is the source of many (though by no means all) of our problems in this issue. Thank you Aldeth.

 

To a degree, yes. Remember this initial thought goes back to you saying a lot of what is taught in schools regarding science is bunk (I'm paraphrasing, I don't feel like looking back for the exact quote). My point was that to get the full story, you should go to the expert in the proper field. High school science teachers don't cut it. I would recommend people who are actual scientists, or people who are professors at universities.

However, when speaking of a priest or a minister, one would expect these people to be experts in their field. I don't know what the Baptist standard is, but Catholic priests require about 8 years of schooling. However, they seem to be no more capable of providing answers to questions to those outside their faith than the membership is. There are two possibilities to explain this: 1.) The standard of being considered an expert is much less in religion than in academia, or 2.) The membership has learned from the priest/minister so well, that they can parrot back to anyone asking whatever the priest/minister told them.

 

Much like how there are several historical inaccuracies in The Bible but because of those we don't throw the whole book away as false.

 

Are you telling me that students shouldn't believe their teachers? If students don't believe their teachers, then what is the point of teaching them? [Ta-dah, Fel]

If the kids want to know more, they should ask an expert, but just because they believe something their teacher tells them (the purpose of teaching is knowledge...) doesn't make them faithful, or the same as a religious fanatic, or whatever comparison you were trying to make.

Fel, quick! Edit your post! Erase all knowledge of my mistake! [EDIT]

[ April 21, 2006, 02:41: Message edited by: Saber ]

 

Edited by request.

[ April 21, 2006, 03:43: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

You can put faith in priests to know all about christianity, or their specific religion, can't you? If that is what you mean, I have no problem with them saying it. As long as they don't say that priests know everything.


Edited previous post, by the way.

 

@Aldeth:
There is a much more dificult proposition in standardising requirements for religious acadamia than for science.
I'm still quite curious about what questions you've asked that couldn't be answered, though. I know you've posted that you don't want us to try, but my curiosity is just driving me crazy. At least PM them to me, please.

@Blackthorne:
I think this was all covered in the evolution thread. There was even a detailed link as to how this guy faked it and that, in reality, the moths have the ability to individually change their colors over time (no evolution involved).

@Ab:
I'm also still waiting for any historical innacuracies you may have found in the Bible. You've repeatedly said they're there, but never gone into specifics.

Saber & Fel:
Umm, ok, don't know what all that was about.
*Slowly backs away and hides around the corner. *

 

@NOG: I have asked all of these questions on the Boards already, and I have received answers (albeit not always satisfactory ones) from mostly Gnarff and yourself, although others have contributed as well. So I really shouldn't say my questions weren't answered, they just weren't answered in a way that made much sense to me.

While I do not remember specifically what all of these questions concerned, I do recall that there was a rather lengthy discussion of the Rapture, something that is completely absent from Catholic teachings. Catholics do believe in a second coming of Christ, but not in such a cataclysmic display as presented by the Rapture.

I'm not sure if this even adequately answers your question, but in the long run, it doesn't really matter. I am Catholic by birth, although only nominally so in practice. That is to say, I have received every Catholic sacrament except Holy Orders and Last Rites (Extremunction is the technical term). So that's five of a possible seven. As I am married, receiving Holy Orders is currently an impossibility for me, and I can only hope that there will be no reason for me to have the receive Last Rites any time soon. That having been said, I do not regularly attend church. The last time I set foot in a Catholic church was the day I got married. All of this is to say that I ask questions regarding things like Mormonism and Protestant beliefs out of my own personal curiosity, not because I have any plans of conversion or something like that, so ultimately the content of your responses are not as important as the ulterior points you make with those comments.

 

Here is a link to one article on the Peppered Moth.(Google came up with over 100,000 references)

Peppered Moth

 

And thus, the peppered moth cannot be used as an argument to say science is wrong...