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RPG anxiety - any useless classes?

Discussion in 'Pillars of Eternity' started by joacqin, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I played a cipher in the BB and my first character in the game was one. I agree with Marceror about ranged weapons. I haven't tried the blunderbus but the cipher can be a very strong class. Make sure he or she has potions and keep that focus up.
     
  2. Ineth

    Ineth Instigator Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    1) Unless you want the cipher to fight in melee, wield a Blunderbuss (for the reason Marceror stated). If you do, also consider taking the Penetrating Shot talent at some point, though you do not need it in the early part of the game. [However, some have speculated that the Blunderbuss might be nerfed in a future patch (i.e. that the "each projectile counts as a separate attack" feature might be removed), in which case it would no longer be so great for ciphers.]

    2) When choosing powers on level-up, make sure you don't miss the level 2 power Mental Binding. It's awesome.

    3) Be mindful of party synergy and the role you want the cipher to play in combat:
    • If you already have a wizard and druid for nuking damage spells, you can neglect the damage-dealing cipher powers and specialize in CC powers.
    • If you have a rogue in the party, let your cipher pick powers which can cause one of the afflictions that will allow the rogue to Sneak Attack the affected enemies.
    • If you want to be a melee cipher, feel free to take the powers with a 'beam' or 'lance' AoE, since they can be quite powerful if used correctly. However if you want your cipher to usually stay back and attack from range (which is the easier and more common way to play the class), avoid those powers because you wouldn't get much use out of them.
    • If you want to optimize for boss fights, then pick powers which do so-called "raw" damage (which is the only damage type that bypasses Damage Reduction), cause damage-over-time effects, or debuff Damage Reduction. OTOH if you want optimize for trash mobs, focus on AoE damage powers.

    4) Avoid powers with "charm" effects. This is the most controversial suggestion in this list, as some people love those effects (probably for the cheese opportunities they open up), but I find them to be more trouble then they're worth in most situations.
    You don't get full control over charmed enemies like you get in the Infinity Engine games; instead, they'll just get a blue circle and and run off to auto-attack their former friends, and it also only lasts for a few seconds. This has several disadvantageous side-effects:
    • Your fighter can no longer keep them locked in melee engagement once they get a blue circle - so you can't keep them from running around as they want.
    • While running around and trying to auto-attack their former allies, they don't always take the best route and often try to run around your whole party. And when their charm duration runs out they'll instantly attack the party member closest to where they happen to be then. It happened to me several times that an enemy which my fighter had safely locked in engagement (away from my fragile wizard), got charmed by my Cipher, ran half-way around my party, and got hostile again just as he happened to be right next to the wizard. That kind of thing is just annoying.
    • Foe-only spells don't work on them while they have a blue circle. So if your wizard/druid/cipher is spamming AoE damage spells, they're wasted on enemies who are currently charmed.
     
  3. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    Honestly, Ineth, I like spells that get enemies to switch sides, and don't feel all that worried about the lack of control. Yes, I'll admit that it could be annoying if a charmed (or whatever) enemy decided to walk over to my wizzy before it reverted. But there's no reason (usually) why you can't move your wizzy away from that charmed bad guy.

    I've found that fights against mobs of ogres are a LOT easier when I use Confusion spells, because it gets them fighting each other. The problem with fighting Ogres is that they have a LOT of health and they can be really difficult to beat down through purely physical means without taking a beating in return. But if you get them fighting each other, you turn their strength back against them. I find the level 4 Confusion spell so useful against Ogres that I refuse to cast any other level 4 spells in those battles because I don't want to waste them. But as they say, your mileage may vary. ;)

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 3 minutes and 27 seconds later... ----------

    This is very true. The thing to never forget about ciphers is that their spells aren't per encounter or per rest. You have a somewhat unlimited supply of them as long as you keep restoring your Focus. So there's no need whatsoever to try to hoard a cipher's psionic spells.
     
  4. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    So, I haven't played the game in a few weeks. Partly because I haven't had much time, partly because I am always slow to start games like this and partly because the mage just didn't feel right. The only cool spell I have is that fireball that tends to do more damage to my party than the enemy and then I have to rest. Not to mention the very first npc is a mage that can do everything you can do. If I pull myself together and start over, what is the most satisfying class to play? I know this is all individual but give me some stories about classes you have had a whole bunch of fun with!
     
  5. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    Cipher is arguably the most enjoyable class to play, even with the recent nerf. Alternatively, pick a class not represented by companions (barbarian, monk, or rogue).
     
  6. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Druid. He is an an offensive caster, decent with a firearm and can melee when shifting. Total package. Choose Stag. They're cool as all hell when shifted.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
  7. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I haven't played in a few weeks either, but my rogue PC has been awesome. A serious damage dealer, and the best class for getting past locks and traps, which are very prevalent in the game.
     
  8. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    The bonus to mechanics is nice, but honestly, you can spec anyone to be good at lockpicking. The +1 over wizard, cipher, or chanter isn't really worth taking a rogue for.

    I've actually found rogue to be pretty boring. I outpaced other party members in DPS, but DPS isn't really a concern with a full party.
     
  9. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Since patch 1.05 you now have the option to level up the companions. I think you would need to start a new game though.

    I haven't played a monk since the patch either but before and a lot of fun to play. Currently I am playing a ranger with bear companion and find it works very well. On the Official forum I have seen people recommending the druid.

    Priests need the mechanic skill for their seals so if you include Durance in your party you can up his mechanic skill.
     
    Blades of Vanatar and crucis like this.
  10. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    ???? Rogues dish it. Big time! One of my parties consists of 2 Pallies, 2 melee Rogues and 2 Clerics. This party rips through everything with the quickness. You can breeze through everything up to and through the Skaen temple with ease.
     
  11. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    You say that like it's an achievement. You can breeze through pretty much anything with a full party, even on PotD. You don't need any particular class combos, and rogues certainly don't contribute anything of real value to the party. Having high DPS may certainly expedite fights, but so can charming or petrifying the enemies. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    PoE is very much the player's game. I play on expert mode which means I get no hints. That includes the character create sheet too. Sure I go for might for melee fighters, IIRC your paladin should have resolve. I consider Intellect important for the player character for better dialogue choices. Could be wrong though of course.

    From official forum posts I think the mistake that players new to this type of game make is trying to hard and not taking the time to learn how the game works. Because they are experienced at other games they think they can cake walk through PoE. You can pretty much if you know what you are doing but PoE is sneaky because you need to think. Yep, I consider it a very stealthy game. :D
     
  13. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    This seems unfair. Rogues contribute as much as any other non-spellcaster class. They can be as active or passive in combat as one prefers. Also I wouldn't say that they contribute nothing of value. Despite the fact that there are other classes that get a +1 bonus in Mechanics at creation, Rogues get a +2. Rogues will always have a small advantage over other classes when it comes to Mechanics skill. This is not a valueless thing.

    That said, I won't say that every party absolutely needs a rogue. You can get by without one, as long as you have another character picking up the Mechanics skill slack, perhaps preferably one from a class that gets a +1 bonus in the skill at creation (plus another from background).
     
  14. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    There are no useless classes in PoE but I think I understand what Keneth is saying. Rogues do not have the importance they had in the IE games. They can be quite useful but the class is no longer necessary. They do have some talents that others don't have though.
     
  15. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    As for "no longer necessary", that's what happens when you allow cross-class skills to the degree that PoE does. Not exactly a criticism, just an observation.

    The thing that made rogues feel necessary was their thieving skills, their traps and locks abilities. But now that anyone can takes these skills, the only advantage that rogues have in this regard is a +2 starting bonus, compared to a +1 bonus for IIRC Wizards, Ciphers, and Chanters. (Not counting a background bonus that everyone can take.) Of course, those bonuses really do matter since every bonus point is one less point you have to pay for with skill points. And at high levels, adding points in a skill gets costly. So it is easier and "cheaper" (in terms of skill points) to use a Rogue for traps and locks than any other class. Still, they're not absolutely "necessary".

    In my current party, I'm using a custom monk as my traps and locks specialist, just for yucks. (I had her take a Worker background for the +1 in Athletics and Mechanics, which seemed entirely logical for a monk.) She's doing OK as a replacement rogue, and is one heck of a damage dealer.

    Honestly though, it still galls me that one of the Companions isn't a Rogue. :(
     
  16. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    That's not a good thing, actually. It's just a testament to the fact that casters exist in a tier of their own again (like they do in D&D).

    It's also untrue. Fighters and paladins have far more potential. No idea about Barbarian and Monk because I haven't played them.

    The bonus is negligible unless you're soloing and need to prioritize other skills or if you're rushing ahead and can't keep up with the DC.

    Given the choice between +1 to Mechanics with a slight edge in DPS and the ability to continually AoE blind or stun enemies, it's not really a contest.
     
  17. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    Actually, I have to disagree here. Rogues can do a LOT of damage, at least as long as you're willing to micromanage them enough to get the most out of their abilities, and have your casters casting spells that affect your enemies with any of the "afflictions" that trigger sneak attacks. If you do this, Rogues can be making almost constant sneak attacks, even at range, piling up really great damage.

    I had a custom Rogue (for traps and locks) in my last party. She was always about a level behind the rest of the party, and yet she was easily second on the team in damage, only trailing my PC monk. One trick that I used for this rogue was to have her carry both an Arquebus and a warbow. I had her use the Arquebus for her opening attack at the start of the battle, getting the automatic sneak attack. Then I switched her to the warbow for the constantly good rate of fire. I suppose that I could have had her carry a couple of guns, but I tend to think that if you want to maximize the sneak attack damage value you get out of the afflicting spells your casters are casting, it helps to use higher RoF weapons during the heat of the battle.



    Honestly, I've never once soloed an IE game or PoE, and never intend on doing so. So this one is irrelevant to me.



    Matter of opinion.
     
  18. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    It doesn't matter how much damage they do. It's easy to rival rogue in terms of DPS, it's next to impossible to use rogue for anything else. Potential in terms of character development does not equal DPS potential.

    It's not an opinion, it's fact. Unless you're in desperate need of a damage boost, which you shouldn't be, one simply outweighs the other.
     
  19. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    So classes that charm or petrify are better??? Like SoA/ToB, any party works and no class is lacking. If Rogue is unnecessary, so is every other class. What's your point?:rolleyes:

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 12 minutes and 29 seconds later... ----------

    With the infinite possibility of party building, what potential outside of damage dealing do you need for the Rogue? By definition in the fantasy RPing world that is what they do. That is their role. This is a ROLEPLAYING game as well. They fit their party need in that regard to a T. It's part of the fun and challenge. Otherwise the devs would just make an ultimate uber class that kills all in one shot and is Immune to everything. I wouldn't purchase that game.
     
  20. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    Hmm, can't say I am sold on anything except that maybe there is no point to rogues. Casters seems to be the way to go except for mages. The fact that no one contradicted me or told me to give the mage a shot has at least convinced me that I should start over.
     
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