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Rose & McGwire - Double Standard?

Discussion in 'Colosseum' started by Blades of Vanatar, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    So, Big Mac is back, with welcome arms from the Cards faithful and a personal bodyguard in LaRussa. Hmmm.. funny how he cheats the entire game, a game that is supposed to have integrity and is welcomed back with open arms. So is A-Rod and Pettite for that matter. But what about Pete? 20 years of bannedhood is not enough? He bet on baseball. He DI NOT throw games. Or change the outcome in anyway. The PEDs users did. Why aren't they banned? Or better yet, why isn't Pete reinstated. I know all about the whole Giamatti/Selig saga, which is ridiculous in my book. Selig can forgive the cheaters, but not Pete? Or is hiding the facts. Is he afraid more will come out, like the owners being in on it as well? Seems to me that McGwires PED source has been hinting towards that a lot more info about the whole PED era will come out, in his book no less. I can't wait for that read...

    Pete Rose and players like him are what made me a fan of the game. Guys that did it all, were all about team. Hell, it's wel known in Philly that Pete, Luzinski and Bowa would party nightly and still come out and put it all on the field, everyday. Pet was a True player. All talent and determination. If anything, boozing slowed them a bit, instead of helping them get an edge on the other players. Was betting on the game wrong? Maybe, if he bet against the team he was managing, which he never did. I say to Bud Selig "Untwist your panties and reinstate Pete, you hypocryte!".
     
  2. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    My understanding has always been that PEDs are not banned by baseball (or at least weren't when he was playing) while gambling was banned by baseball. It is a fine line, but that is the reason.

    Although, I do agree with you. Pete Rose has more then paid his debt to "baseball.". I believe he should be re-instated and then enshrined in the hall of fame.
     
  3. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Okay Blades, what rule did Mark McGuire break? I must admit I did find it in poor taste when the St Louis fans booed Bonds after having driven on Mark McGwire Hwy to get to the park. The fans wanted the home run race, they wanted the record to be broken. And the fans paid to see it happen -- and are still coming to the park. On the pitching side, the fans wanted to see a guy throw 90+ mph fastballs for seven innings straight (do you think the pitchers weren't juiced?). Before Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa (and all the other juiced up home run hitters) baseball was dying. It was nearly killed off when millionaires went on strike for a bigger piece of the average fan's wallet.

    I was a fan of the Big Red Machine -- I had a poster of Rose in my room. I agree with his ban. My message to Bud would be: reinstate Shoeless Joe before Charlie Hustle.
     
  4. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Shoeless Joe as well, I agree. The rule on betting in itself is absurd. It needs to be changed to when you are breaking the law, like actually fixing the game and making money off of it. Betting on games isn't illegal. And he didn't bet on his team to lose or in anyway influence the game. That's the difference between him and the Black Sox. Obviously the guy has a gambling problem. Rehab him like they do the drug offenders and give them upteen chances, like Howe, Gooden, Strawberry, etc.... Don't ban him for life. That's nuts.


    As for the PED users, the banned list should of been applied prior to it's birth in MLB. That is the fault of Selig and the owners. Again, I will say I think the reason for this to cover their own asses. There are things they don't want out in public, like them okaying the use PEDs to bring the dollars back into their pockets. I find Selig hypocritical in this respect. He should ban PED users if he is to ban Rose. If Pete hurt the integrity of hte game, the PED users are killing it(or already have killed it...).
     
  5. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    I absolutely disagree. Rose should remain banned from baseball, AT LEAST for the remainder of his life! It is not a secret that betting on baseball is absolutely forbidden and that doing so will get you banned, and yet Rose still knowingly bet on games. He should NEVER be inducted into the HOF while he lives, and nor should any other player that bets on games.


    That said, I'm not against such players being given permanent bans, per se. But I am for lifetime bans. Rose should never EVER live to be see himself enshrined in the Hall and be able to profit from it.
     
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I think there is a difference between Rose and the 'roid droids. Betting on any baseball was specifically forbidden at the time he did it and he knew it.

    The PED-ophiles were gaming the system, sure, but what they did was not specifically against the rules back then. Look at the guys doing speed in the '60's as well.

    Further, there's something revolting about the way Rose has dealt with this from day one that leads me to think he's waaaay slimy. So, on a personal level, I don't give a rat's ass about him. Some of the more recent abusers are like that, but others are likeable enough. (Also, I could never see myself doing what Rose did were I in his position, but I definitely could see the pressures that would lead to PED use. I would hope I wouldn't succumb, but who knows how I would have reacted if I knew that doing it would raise my income [already ridiculous with these guys] by a factor of 10.)
     
  7. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    I agree, DMC. And to drill down a little more, there's a difference between gambling and using PED's. When you're using PED's, you are trying to make yourself better and consequently make your team better. Yes, it's cheating (questions of whether it was against the rules at the time aside), but it's still philosophically similar to the player who is simply working out a lot more. And while it is cheating, it's not completely destroying the integrity of the overall competition insofar as you are trying to make you and your team better.

    Note that I'm not arguing in favor of PED's. Not at all. But the fact is that IF all players were using PED's, the competitive integrity of the game wouldn't necessarily be destroyed. Of course, when only some players are using them, while others aren't, the players who aren't are at a considerable disadvantage ... which is why they're banned and should be.

    OTOH, with gambling, there's never any guarantee that you won't actually do things that are contrary to the Game's underlying concept of competition. Might you bet against your own team and then work to negatively affect your team? Or perhaps if the "wrong people" know that you are gambling on your team, couldn't they blackmail you into affecting outcomes? Or if you're a manager gambling on your own games (even if only on your own team), if you have a bet on "tonight's" game, might you make certain decisions that would normally be considered bad for the team's longer term benefit simply so that you might be able to win (and win your bet) tonight (like overusing a starter, or overusing a tired reliever)? Gambling on your own sport is destructive to the integrity of the sport.... that's why it is banned in baseball, and presumably in all other major sports. And that's why it should remain so, and why Rose should never ever be allowed in the HOF, at least for the remainder of his lifetime.
     
  8. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    There is a culture of cheating in baseball. Players do anything they can to gain an advantage -- and it's only against the rules if the rule is enforced. Corking a bat? Only applies if the bat breaks and an umpire sees it. Foreign substance on the hands of a pitcher? Get real ... take a look at the hats these guys wear, that brown stuff isn't oil from their hair (Tavares is a good example). Stealing signs? Once again only if you get caught and the opposing team files a complaint.

    This is a sport where cleating a short stop or second baseman to break up a double play is both illegal and expected. Beaning a batter for an insult (running the base too slowly after a home run) is both illegal and expected.
     
  9. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    Well, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying" attitude floating around.

    As for stealing signs, I wasn't aware that that was actually cheating... at least for a runner on second. (It is illegal for teams to be using TV cameras to steal signs, IIRC.)



    Speaking of beaning the hitter for an insult ... the Red Sox great new Cuban SS prospect, Julio Iglesias, was playing in the Arizona Fall League... and after his first homer, he celebrated rather openly while running around the bases.... Guess what happened in his next at-bat? You got it ... he got nailed in the ribs. He had to learn the lesson that you don't celebrate so loudly in American baseball... He actually did learn the lesson, as when he hit his next homer, he apparently kept his head down and just ran around the bases in the proper mildly joyless MLB manner... ;)
     
  10. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Well, then for all of you who think that betting on baseball is worse than taking roids. Think on this. Rose bet on baseball to win what, a few thousand, say maybe even one hundred thousand dollars. Taking roids gives these guys millions of dollars in their pockets. Prolonging careers and allowing for bigger contracts, which raises the prices on the fans. Can anyone honestly tell me Rose is the bigger crook?
     
  11. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    They are all crooks, and all should receive a lifetime ban.

    It's crap like this that makes me dislike sports in general. When it comes to 'roids, my feeling is that I want to watch and celebrate the accomplishments of hardworking athletes. I do not want to watch the accomplishments of scientists as personified by the athlete who had the best lab working for him making illegal and dangerous substances.
     
  12. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    Easily. VERY easily.

    The big contracts would have remained. It would have only been a matter of who was getting them, not the total outlay of the teams to the players.


    Blades, it's not about the money. It's about the integrity of the game. While taking PED's is cheating, so is using corked bats, spit balls, and many other things.... but in the end, those cheats are about improving your OWN performance and by extension your team. And if everyone is using these cheats, the essential integrity of competition isn't really attacked because everyone is still trying their best to win.

    OTOH, gambling is a MASSIVE attack on the ethics and integrity of the game. I'm always astounded at the inability of people to understand this simple concept. When players or coaches gamble on their own sport, you attack the essential integrity of the sport because you cannot know if they are trying their best to win the game, or are trying to win the bet. And you cannot know if some outsider isn't trying to use those players or coaches to influence the outcomes of games for their own purposes.

    Gambling by participants in a sport is a MUCH greater attack on the integrity of the sport than lesser cheats like PED use, corked bats, and so forth. MUCH greater.
     
  13. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    In Rose's case, I disagree. IF he would of bet against his team, then yes, it is a bad path to go down. OTOH, to bet for your team to win, well, I just don't see any ramifications that come from that bet that could hurt anyone. It's like betting on yourself to win. I don't see how anyone can compare the two scenarios and feel the same way about both. Is a Pro Golfer wrong for betting on himself? What about a professional pool player? It only puts them in a tighter spot to win because they have more riding on it then just the win-lose column. They have more of their financials riding on it as well. Betting to gain for yourself while changing the results of the game is wrong. Betting ON yourself is nothing but having fun and tyring to earn an extra buck.

    As for the contracts, I disagree as well. Let's take McGwire for instance. He was spending every year on the DL for long periods. He goes on the juice and gets his career extended. Making ALOT more money than he would of as an injury prone player in the process. You think he was thinking about his team and giving them a better chance to win? I highly doubt it. It is all about Big Mac, not his team. If he cared about his team, why the silence and self-imposed exile for several years? Why not speka up about what he did and help other, younger players understand the issues in baseball and the pressure the game puts on them. He only spoke up because he wants back in the game. Yep, it's all about Big Mac.

    Then look at A-Rod. He was juicing for a long time. Look at the money he has made due to those results. He is the biggest crook of them all. :o
     
  14. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I agree with everything dmc stated. First of all, PEDs weren't against the rules when most of these guys (including Big Mac) were playing. Technically, they were banned back in the 80s, but there was no testing until about 20 years after the fact. While we know McGuire used PEDs, he never failed a drug test while he was playing (because there were no tests).

    Additionally, there is a sign in every MLB clubhouse that states gambling on baseball is forbidden, and you get banned for life if you do. Rose knew the reprecussions he would receive if he got caught, and did it anyway. I also agree with dmc that there is something slimy about the way Rose handled the whole thing, especially admitting he bet on baseball right when his book was released when he said the same thing. It looked more like a marketing ploy than an apology.

    That said, if McGuire is any indication, none of these guys are getting in the HOF.
     
  15. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Because there was not testing it doesn't count? I don't get that logic Aldeth. Taking PEDs was against the rules. The rules weren't being enforced because they were taking the players "word" for it. The relied on honesty from the players. Then the signs showed that wasn't enough, with homers flying out of the parks like crazy. The "word" of alot of players was a lie. That doesn't stink of rotten integrity?

    I have to say that the "Everyone in baseball knows you don't bet on baseball" thing is a bit ridiculous. Maybe not at the time, but these days it is. "Codes" and "Integrity of the Game" are out the window in today's era. The young players are all about contracts and money, which ultimately screw the fans with high price tags on everything related to the game. In today's world, ANY transgression is ok as long as an apology or excuse follow. If Pete fessed up right away, would he of been excused by the Commish? Nope. Different times and different standards. Pete has been banned long enough and has payed the price of humilation. If we can forgive Pettite, Manny and A-Rod, the media obviously has, as they didn't roast them like Pete, we can forgive Pete. Pete did nothing to change the outcome in anyway. That is what counts. He didn't change the results. He pocketed a little cash for himself, as he was seeing an era where the players were starting to make heaps of money compared to what the players of the 60's and 70's made. Then the PED users made Heaps more on top of that by cheating. in my book, Pete is no where near the bad guy that any PED user is.
     
  16. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Two words for you Blades: Black Sox.
     
  17. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Just curious, because I really don't know the answer, but are we absolutely SURE that Pete never bet on his team to lose? If we are sure, how is that possible?
     
  18. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    T2, Black Sox does not = Pete Rose. :nono:That is an unfair comparison to Pete. He didn't take money to lose the World Series on purpose. He only bet on his team. Big difference. The comparison of the Black Sox players to the PEDs users is a better comaprison than Pete will ever be.

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 21 minutes and 56 seconds later... ----------

    AFAIK, it never came out that Pete bet against his team. Here is an excerpt from the USA Today....

    "June 26, 1989— Despite Giamatti's assertion the report is confidential, it is released to the media by court officials. Based largely on corroborated testimony of two Rose associates, Ron Peters and Paul Janszen, the Dowd report asserts that in 1985, '86 and '87 Rose had bet on baseball games, including 52 Reds games in 1987, at a minimum of $10,000 a day. All of Rose's bets on Cincinnati were to win."
     
  19. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Blades you miss my point. The entire gambling rule came about because of the Black Sox. The rule is posted in every clubhouse and locker room at all levels of professional baseball. Every player knows that every member of that team who even knew about the rigged games was banned for life.

    Until an equivalent message is sent about PED's the two are not on the same level to the players. And yes, a rule that is not enforced is not a rule at all and players are under no requirement to follow it (that pretty much goes for any sport).
     
  20. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Then that standard is retarded. Times change and so do the preceptions of what is right and wrong. If a player was caught betting on his own team tomorrow and immediately apologized, would he get banned for life? I highly doubt it. Today's society is more forgiving. A Suspension yes, but not a banning. Pete paid his debt, a debt that outweighed the so called crime, so it's time to let it go and give Pete back his dignity, what little is left of it. If we can forgive and not punish the PED users with banning, that same standard should be used for any breaking of the rules. Christ, how many chances did Steve Howe get.... or Strawberry.... they are far worse characters in my book.
     
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