Religious Curiousity

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LGW wrote:
I am not sure if you are arguing that God does not exercise justice, or that God should not allow free choices to be made. You seem to be arguing both at the same time, though those are two dinstinctly different thoughts.

My reply:
Ermmmm - how do you make that out? I have just carefully reread my posts and I do no such thing!
Let me clarify it for you:
1. I do NOT believe god(s) exercise justice.
2. I do not think god(s) have anything to do with human freedom of choice.
Those are not contradictory statements

LGW wrote:
If you believe that God does not exercise justice -- does not punish the rapist, for instance -- I can assure you that He does. We see it in our daily lives, in the ways that our lives are adversely effected by our individual and corporate (universally aggregated) decisions. But we will not see if fully until Judgment Day;
To quote 2 Peter 3:3-15:

My reply:
You don't need to quote scripture at me, LGW! As you would know if you had read my post with a little more attention, I have an intimate knowledge of the bible. I can quote it just as well as you can.

LGW wrote:
It is precisely the execution of God's justice -- such as the great flood and the conquest of Canaan -- that you find unpalatable, while at the same time trying to convict God for not rendering justice. DS is quite right -- you are contradicting yourself. Either you want God to be just, and accept the destruction of rebellion from His midst, or you do not want God to be just, in which case the thought of unpunished rapists and such should not bother you. Since God is just, it would make more sense to start from that fact and ask how that should affect our beliefs and conduct.

My reply:
LGW - I can only repeat that you have not read my posts with any degree of attention, or you would be aware that there is no contradiction in anything I have written in this thread.
Regarding the Flood, my objection was that it was an example of intervention without justice. Ok, there were 'bad' people among those destroyed - but killing off a whole world full of people - including their children - and a planetfull of animals into the bargain can hardly be seen as just.
As I pointed out, even god expressed a modicum of regret for the event - though miniscule is probably a better word for the amount of regret:
"And as for me, here I am establishing my covenant with you men and with your offspring after you, and with every living soul that is with you, among fowls, among beasts, and among all living creatures of the earth with you... No more will all flesh be cut off by waters of a deluge, and no more will there occur a deluge to bring the earth to ruin."

Yes - I WOULD like to see justice from god(s) but I do not. Go back up my posts and read again the scenarios I offered of human beings standing by and letting bad things happen to the helpless and consider the reactions of a Court of Law! Those scenarios are equivalent to the way god(s) stand by and let things happen to the helpless.
My real objection to the gods of this world is that they are all going 'fix things later'. The excuse offered is non-interference with human free will. (The bible god had no objection in the past, as I said before, in interfering when it suited him)
You tell to the starving, stick-bodied, pot-bellied babies you see on your TV that will fix it sometime in the future. Tell it to their mothers.
Just stand by and watch a wicked man rape a helpless child. Tell the child god will fix it later.
If there IS a god (I don't believe there is) I want to see its justice now. I want justice to be done throughout human history, not at some date in the future after millions more people have suffered. (Yeah, I know it's pie in the sky). A god is supposed to LOVE his people, and care for them, like a parent cares for children.
What parent would say to a toddler with a sharp knife "Oh, be careful, darling, won't you? I can't take the knife away from you because that would be violating you freedom of choice - but look, just read this instruction book about how to use it safely."
You think the kid will read it? You think the kid can even read? You think the kid won't injure itself? You think the parent is responsible and loving? Humans are like babies to your eternal god.

Most of the world's population is unable to read. And people who cannot read 'do not know god' as the bible requires them to. Yet the bible says that the earth will be covered with the bodies of the dead that god will destroy at Armageddon - and many of them for no better reason than because they 'do not know god'. Justice?
The bible also says god's thoughts and ways are higher than ours.
I don't think a god that goes in for mass murder, ethnic cleansing and neglect is higher than us.
BTW - nothing wrong with a bit of healthy rebellion! It means you have been thinking! The more I read the bible, the more I got to thinking the Devil had a point! I guess that makes me look like an antichrist in your eyes. But actually, I am very much in favour of Jesus.


Shadow-Thief! Hi!
Obviously, I do not believe everyone should believe in god.

Your reasoning on Adam & Eve teaching their offspring about god is sensible, even if it was offered tongue-in-cheek!

About Adam & Eve being white - there is no reason in the bible to think that was the case! It was white Europeans that painted them white, just as they painted Jesus with fair skin and blue eyes even though he was a Jew from Gallilee! But since the whole human race is supposed to have come from Adam & Eve, it makes sense that they were probably of a darker skin colour than Europeans, though paler than black Africans. That way we can explain the variety.

I love your line in sarcasm, btw!




[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 03, 2001).]

 

ok, myhtology lesson for you all which might help you.

before earth and the universe was created there was god, lucifer (the light bringer/bearer, the bringer of light, the holy one, the one true angel) his right hand man, and judean or someone as his left hand man. lucifer was in charge of the riad of angles. the triad of angles was basically gods army, with a few hundred thouasnd in each, theyre were the blood angels, angels of death and the holy angles. the blood angles were the supreme fighters, the holy angles attacked wiht bows and the angles of death were kinda like light infantry. the blood angels had razor sharp wings and blades coming out of their mouths and it is said that no blade made by man can touch them, they were also the onyl angles able to eproduce. judean was gods thinker and planner, he is said to ahve come up wiht the idea of water and fish. when god created earth lucifer got jealous and wanted to rule alongside god, god said no, lucifer was ast down to earth, but unkwoing to god he took the blood angels with him.
blah bla bla humans were made and lucifer mated with one, haveing the child called SATAN! lucifer is actually the father of the nowadays devil, lucifer is trapped in a pit of burning sulphur until 10000 (yes it is ten thousand, the old deciphers missed out a symbol and thought it was 1000) years are up, but right now satan still walks the earth in human form.
lucifer is not evil incarante or anythign like that. he is an angel just like the rest of them, just as good as god. everythign in the bible is propoganda. judea is also meant to be jesus but im not sure of that.

 

O.k., these are some really long posts. My 2 cents begin...I find myself in the athiest and agnostic arenas.I really don't believe in anything(religious) or 'know' anything at all.I am not sure about this free will,or believe in God(s).

I 'believe' that there is no free will. 'Your' choice to assist the rape victim or not to is based on what you are made of(Genetics) and what life experiences you've had up til that point. People built the same with the same experiences will make the same decisions.

God(s) is the best work of fiction ever created. This allegedly omnipotent being is only 'present' here because we(humans) created it. There is no way you can believe that everything was made by this being.If you do believe this, than you must ask yourself the question 'Where did God come from?'. If you start that line of questions it only becomes a chicken and egg deal.Religion and God(s) is just something someone created a long time ago to make us feel better or worse.

I don't know how we got here or where we're going(if anywhere). The only thing I think I do believe in(just a bit) is LUCK. It is the only thing you can count on whether its 'bad' or 'good'.
For the record I was Catholic(baptized, communed, and confirmed) until my 'free will' set in.

Other comments on religion.

If there is a god(that means I'm toast) then it could not be good. It would have to be druid.True neutral through and through.

I've yet to find a god that didn't think it needed to be worshipped. Define worship and see if it's something that should be done by someone with 'free will'.

The 'word of god', whatever, the ink of man is more like it.

...some of this may offend but I hope you understand that it is just my opinion.


[This message has been edited by Slackertoast (edited August 03, 2001).]

 

herf ROFLMAO! Where the devil did you find that one?! Source and author required if you please, lol!

Blackthorne TA Yes, you are not too far out! But I was replying to a post about the biblical Adam & Eve being white, so used that context.
And anyway, it makes sense that early humans, whoever they were, would be a kind of mid-brown colour 'cos that gives greater opportunity for wide variation than would be the case with very dark or very pale origins, regardless of sun exposure.

Slackertoast I agree with most everything you say! But I have to make a point about the old 'where did god come from'/chicken & egg argument. It doesn't wash, friend! Look at it this way (bearing in mind that I do NOT believe in the gods we have created any more than you do, ok?):

Thinking that god must have 'come from' 'somewhere' is to assume that TIME has always been in operation. Whereas, in fact, TIME could not exist without something MOVING in some way, even if that 'something' was no more than a single atom. Now, scientists can put an AGE to the universe. They have calculated WHEN it came into existence (don't ask me how long ago, I forget numbers). SO - it was when the universe BEGAN (lots of little particles moving about and therefore ageing) that TIME began. Before that there was NO TIME. It therefore follows that an immaterial being - unaffected by TIME because of being outside it by reason of having no moving particles - did not need to 'come from' anywhere. He just WAS (IS, whatever). It is the ageing, decaying universe that will eventually die (and TIME with it) that is the anomaly rather than this hypothetical god.
Hope you can follow that!

I totally agree with you about worship. Anyone that demands/wants it doesn't deserve it. Anyway, I leave worship to dogs. Gimme a nice independat, selfish, greedy cat any day!

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 03, 2001).]

 

Lol!

BTA-Yes, I know that the skin is determined in climats with your melonins.

Something Dale-I don't know what sarcasm you are talking about; unless your talking about me 'n my grave.

Slacker-I believe what you say.

 

ShadowThief

You mean you were NOT being sarcastic?? Man, that post reeks of sarcasm!! I loved it!
Look, I can honestly recommend that you go in for sarcasm in a big way, especially if you can do it so well without even trying!!

However - if you feel offended that I thought you were being sarcastic when you were being serious, I apologise!

Anyway - rest assured you wont burn in hell -the bible, at least, doesn't say there is a hell in which you will suffer forever!
And think how unjust the concept of hell is, anyway. In hell you are supposed to suffer FOR INFINITLY for sins that are merely finite. Even the most wicked person couldn't do enough in his/her lifetime to warrant ETERNAL retribution!!

 

Ex-Big Green Priest's Guide to the Problem of Evil, Part Two

[I lost my machine, which had password, Tal is gone, can't get pword from others, so recreated an identity.]

In our last installment, I noted that in the Christian worldview, the problem is not that God is good and all-powerful, and yet evil exists today. I explained that this common puzzler is bad logic; it's just fun rhetoric, but it holds no sting against the God of the Bible.

The problem is that evil exists, period. God can co-exist with evil, no problem. But if every effect must have a sufficient cause, and God caused evil, then God sinned--using the common definitions of "caused" and "evil" and "sinned." If God sinned, the God of the Bible is not "holy" or "perfect." Thus the Bible is wrong, and orthodox Christianity is down the drain.

I hope you now see where the problem of evil lies. And you see how if Christianity has a problematic solution that demands philosophical hand-springs to avoid God's guilt, atheism has no solution whatsoever. They have NO sufficient cause. If humans are morally neutral, then there is NO moral inertia, no causitive factor for either good or evil. At least the Christians have some place to start--atheists are blank on the topic, IMHO. I'm open to being taught here.

My solution is that the second law of thermodynamics teaches that, in a closed system, entropy occurs; chaos, not order, forms. (Unless external forces intercede; that is precisely what Orthodox Christianity teaches happened through the coming of Christ; but that's another topic.)

I would ask that you grant me an assumption that while we are not talking about a strictly physical object (evil), you allow me to port over this general rule and apply it to a metaphysical object.

I admit I cannot prove this relationship is valid; this is a speculative point and you are free to dispute it. But I'm not asserting a point that has no direct proof behind it thoughtlessly.

Going on: You are creature or you are Creator. You are born in the stream of time or you are not. You are eternal, or you are mortal.

Those beings and their properties born in the stream of time are currently ever-changing. And I believe that sin or moral failure was the result of this natural degrading of morality/intelligence.

I include intelligence because only an idiot would rebel against the God of the Bible. I mean, read five pages of the Bible and you see how BIG he claims to be. He takes no guff whatsoever. He may be very patient, but he always takes vengence upon those who mess with him. So, it wasn't just one area that had to degrade for a being to fall--entropy took a holistic toll on the mortal frame of Satan (the first who fell, not Adam. Think about it--the Snake was the Tempter, so he had already fallen.)

In this way, God is protected from being the
"fall guy." It is the creature, not the creator, who sins. It is the creature, not the creator, who should repent. It is the creature, not the creator, who keeps sinning, keeps bringing death and evil upon the world. It is the creature, not the creator, who fails to call out for God's mercy as they encounter natural events such as floods and such. "You have not because you ask not" the Bible says frequently (like in James 4).

This brings us back to the fact that God permits evil, and while it's been disputed, I still maintain that there is no logical or biblical dispute to be had over whether a good and powerful God can allow evil to continue.

The only question is "How long?" How long will God wait to punish evil? How long before He makes the entire universe be a reflection of his unblemished character? And how will the God of the Bible come through on the prayer of his Son, who said, "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

That's the question. That is the hardest question for Christians to answer, as Christians live in the midst of a world that has only small pockets of "kingdomness." Only a few churches seem to be living out the truths of the Bible in an authentic, gracious manner.

And it's no surprise that the Jesus of the Bible seems to fortell this as he says, 13 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell F50 is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14 But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it."

AD

 

Oh, Good! BGP! You are back! I have saved your post and will get back to you later!

I shall have to remember your new name, though.

 

The old testament is crap. The biggest load of crap that exist's. It's nothing but a glorified bloodbath. Obey or die.
The perfect tool for tyrant's priets' to control the people with.
Then Jesus arrives with a completely new philosophy. THOSE ideas are what christianity is based upon (or at least SHOULD be)
But...the new church misuses their power, and twist's Jesus words.
The same thing is true of Islam.
Mohammed came up with some completely new ideas too, but after his death the caliphate misused their power and twisted Mohammeds words.
But that was hundreds of years ago.
And Shadow... where did you get the idea that non-belivers go to Hell?
It's nothing but somekind of anti-christian hysteria just like people who think role-players are cultist! ( Happened to me once!)
Another important thing about the Bible is, that it is symbolic.
The Bible can easily be demolished with logic. Of course Adam and Eve never existed.
Jesus probably didn't make any miracles.
But that doesn't MATTER! The only thing that matters is the basic philosophy behind the stories...and belief.
When is God going to stop evil?
He isn't.
Evil doesn't exist.
Criminals' aren't "evil".
Misguided? Yes. Evil? No.
They just don't know what is right or wrong.
And as I said: God tries to guide us on the right track. Pushing doesn't work.
Finally...humans look for answers all the time. If it can't be answered...it doesn't exist. But maybe the human mind just CAN'T
understand it...because of logic.
Sometimes we are close to the answers...but our logic dismisses it in the instant we think about it.

 

Divine, to tell you the truth, I got an email about hell and deleted it. I will get it from my friend so she can send it back to me. Then I will post it here. It's hanging on to this topic by a thread so please, try not to get angry about it being not about this topic.

 

Fljotsdale,

I will bow out for a while here, and let you read through what BGP has written.

But first -- how do you define justice? How do you define what is right or what is wrong? Apart from God, you are left with nothing more than opinion. You cannot even claim that rape is wrong. What if I disagree? Which of us is correct? We need a transcendent moral law in order to determine right and wrong, and that requires a transcendent Law-Giver.

And so, as BGP has said, you have no basis to even make an accusation against God without first granting that God exists. But to grant that God exists means granting that God, being God, necessarily determines what is moral and just. And so again your argumentation is invalidated again because you are using Fljotsdale's Guide to Justice and Biblical Understanding, rather than God's.

But I am not a talented debater, so I will leave it between you and BGP, unless you have specifics you wish me to address.

LGW

 

I think I will join in too, since I like debates. First of all, we are all the same, but that does not mean that none of us should be queen or king, or a higher 'rank'. The fact is, if we didn't have a law-giver, we would be basically in turmoil over fighting about who is right or wrong. We elude those fights by apointing someone leader so the decision will be up the them, instead of up to the fight. I believe God as something that people make up to explain the unexplainable. God does not make up moral crap, that is up to us. What roll do we play on earth? That is up to us to make the paths. There is no evil, just misguidance or misunderstanding. People's actions are an influence to other people. Causing accusations is a guess made to be proved by law. Justice is an unplainable matter to only people who seek it. I rest my case.

 

You are dead on shadow_thief! Alone the fact there are unexplainable things is a proof divine beings exist.
I also thought about this:
Earlier all the things we have today were considered fantasy.
But why shouldn't this work the other way around? That things we consider fantasy has existed?
We never found out how they build the pyramids for example.
No I'm not talking about anything spiritual.
I'm talking about how those people thought.
Maybe their minds could think of methods noone would consider today.
There is some truth in everything (though it's probably twisted beyond regocnition)
Why should stories about gods exist if the gods didn't exist? Alone the fact that many cultures share legends is a sign that all the gods are the same.
Of course (or sadly) religion exist's because someone wanted power.
But that can't be all.
Take the vikings. Their spiritual leaders
hadn't got any influence.
A proof there HAS to be another fundament for religion.
My first guess would be that it makes our lives less pointless.
Makes people feel they serve a greater purpose.
So...that COULD mean religion was created to enforce the illusion that we are important.
I remember reading an article about unemployment. Some people can't bear not to have a job. Makes them feel unwanted and useless.
But I still believe there is a point to all this. There HAS to be.
I mean...look at the evolution.
All other races has a clear purpose.
But humans? No.
The only thing we are suited for is inventing. In fact our whole being seems
DESIGNED for it.

 

Yes. Maybe we humans have driven the halflings, dwarves, elves and such from the world, just from difference. Like I said, god is something that people make up to explain the unexplainable. The unexplainable might have an affect of how our ancestors acted. They might've chosen not to tell the methods of building a pyramid for secrecy. If this is true, they were smarted to learn that if they don't give a message of how to build pyramids, the secret would die with them. Therefore, from lack of info, we have not been able to uncover the mystery. There was also a period of time where others dejected certain cultures and rituals, therefore as the cultures and rituals died, so did the info.

 

Hiya, AD aka BGP!
As promised:

AD (Ex-BGP) wrote:
1. The problem is that evil exists, period. God can co-exist with evil, no problem. But if every effect must have a sufficient cause, and God caused evil, then God sinned--using the common definitions of "caused" and "evil" and "sinned." If God sinned, the God of the Bible is not "holy" or "perfect." Thus the Bible is wrong, and orthodox Christianity is down the drain.

My reply:
Ok. Good premise. Only one objection: God chucked Satan out of heaven because he did not like co-existing with evil and he was worried the rest of the angels would be corrupted – Satan took a third of them with him when he ‘left’ (see Revelation 12:4,7-12). Though I grant you it was not an immediate expulsion (See Job 1:6).

AD wrote:
2. I hope you now see where the problem of evil lies. And you see how if Christianity has a problematic solution that demands philosophical hand-springs to avoid God's guilt, atheism has no solution whatsoever. They have NO sufficient cause. If humans are morally neutral, then there is NO moral inertia, no causitive factor for either good or evil. At least the Christians have some place to start--atheists are blank on the topic, IMHO. I'm open to being taught here.

My reply:
Why are you assuming that humans are morally neutral? What is your basis for that assumption?
If you look at the historical record, both written and drawn/painted you will see that humanity has had much the same standards of ‘good’ & ‘evil’ throughout history, regardless of religion (or lack of it). It therefore follows that human beings have innate/instinctive knowledge of what is harmful and what is beneficial – which is, in the final analysis, the definition of ‘good’ & ‘evil’.
The christian needs ‘philosophical hand-springs to avoid Gods guilt’, as does any religion. The Atheist does not. The Atheist is aware that if humanity is to survive it has to get off its ass and take action. We don’t have to worry about whether someone else (god) is responsible for evil. We know its us and that we must try to act in such a way as to do most good and least harm. One of the reasons I rail against the bible concept of god (as well as all the rest of ‘em) is that BELIEF in that god gives permission for all sorts of atrocities. But I already went into some of that in earlier posts.

AD wrote:
3. My solution is that the second law of thermodynamics teaches that, in a closed system, entropy occurs; chaos, not order, forms. (Unless external forces intercede; that is precisely what Orthodox Christianity teaches happened through the coming of Christ; but that's another topic.) I would ask that you grant me an assumption that while we are not talking about a strictly physical object (evil), you allow me to port over this general rule and apply it to a metaphysical object.

My reply:
Ok. I will grant that assumption, for now…

AD wrote:
4. You are creature or you are Creator. You are born in the stream of time or you are not.
You are eternal, or you are mortal. Those beings and their properties born in the stream of time are currently ever-changing. And I believe that sin or moral failure was the result of this natural degrading of morality/intelligence.

My reply:
Um. But you are an advocate of the bible and the bible god, are you not? I think you will find that the story of The Fall in Eden does not quite fit in with your belief * ‘And I believe that sin or moral failure was the result of this natural degrading of morality/intelligence’* regardless of whether you accept A & E as literal or figurative.

AD wrote:
5. I include intelligence because only an idiot would rebel against the God of the Bible. I mean, read five pages of the Bible and you see how BIG he claims to be. He takes no guff whatsoever. He may be very patient, but he always takes vengence upon those who mess with him.

My reply
Oh, come on! That’s tantamount to saying that your god is a big bully! So you worship your god because he is bigger and stronger than you are and will whack you if you don’t?
And why is someone who rebels against a big bully ‘stupid’? Only cowards don’t stand up to bullies. Even if you know you are going to get creamed, an intelligent person HAS to stand up to the bully. Whether that bully is an individual, an organisation, a government or a god. Makes no difference.
Um. And would an ‘idiot’ be capable of taking a third of the angels with him in his rebellion? They must have had SOME valid reason to defect, don’t you think?

AD wrote:
6. So, it wasn't just one area that had to degrade for a being to fall--entropy took a holistic toll on the mortal frame of Satan (the first who fell, not Adam. Think about it--the Snake was the Tempter, so he had already fallen.)

My reply:
Yes, obviously, the bible says Satan was first. We all know that!

AD wrote:
7. In this way, God is protected from being the "fall guy." It is the creature, not the creator, who sins. It is the creature, not the creator, who should repent. It is the creature, not the creator, who keeps sinning, keeps bringing death and evil upon the world.

My reply:
Yeah, that’s what the bible says. And it is true that human beings treat each other badly. So, since from both viewpoints WE are responsible, it is OUR responsibility to deal with it. Either way, we don’t need to refer to god to ‘fix it’ for us by raising us to a ‘better place’ when we die’ if we are ‘good’ now. This life is IT. We are responsible, therefore, to make it the best we can for everyone.

AD wrote:
8. It is the creature, not the creator, who fails to call out for God's mercy as they encounter natural events such as floods and such. "You have not because you ask not" the Bible says frequently (like in James 4).

My reply:
I think you need to read James 4 with a bit more attention to detail! Take in a bit more of the context of the verse you are quoting: “You desire and yet you do not have. You go on murdering and coveting, and yet you are not able to obtain. You go on fighting and waging war. You do not have because of your not asking. You do ask, and yet you do not receive, because you are asking for a wrong purpose, that you may expend it upon your cravings for sensual pleasure.” (James 4:2,3)
Now, how does that apply to calling on god for mercy in the face of natural disaster? And anyway, people beg god to save them from disaster all the time. Never stopped a flood or a volcano or an earthquake yet, no matter how devout the ‘faithful’ were.

AD wrote:
9. This brings us back to the fact that God permits evil, and while it's been disputed, I still maintain that there is no logical or biblical dispute to be had over whether a good and powerful God can allow evil to continue.

My reply:
Evil continues regardless of whether or not is with god’s permission, yes.

AD wrote:
10. The only question is "How long?" How long will God wait to punish evil? How long before He makes the entire universe be a reflection of his unblemished character? And how will the God of the Bible come through on the prayer of his Son, who said, "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." That's the question. That is the hardest question for Christians to answer, as Christians live in the midst of a world that has only small pockets of "kingdomness." Only a few churches seem to be living out the truths of the Bible in an authentic, gracious manner.
And it's no surprise that the Jesus of the Bible seems to fortell this as he says, 13 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell F50 is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14 But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it."


My reply:
Yes. But the bible does give believers some pretty specific guidelines. No dates. Just guidelines. Unfortunately, the guidelines seem to apply to many times in human history since the death of Jesus. (2 Tim 3:1-5; Matt 24:3-14)
And one thing that is worth noting in the Lord’s Prayer that most people seem not to notice “…on EARTH as it is in heaven.” Which indicates that man’s future is on earth, not in heaven.


Divine Shadow
I can truly see where you are coming from, DS, and I agree with much that you are saying. Um. But. In the interests of accuracy I find I need to make some defence of the bible on a few points. But don’t run away with the idea that I am in any way implying belief in god or that the bible is a god-given document, ok?

You said that:
1. Jesus arrived with a completely new philosophy.
2. Adam and Eve never existed.
3. The bible is symbolic.
4. Jesus probably didn’t make any miracles.
5. Evil doesn’t exist.
6. ‘If it can’t be answered - it doesn’t exist.’

My responses:
1. Not so. Jesus constantly referred to and quoted from the OT and said his followers should obey the scriptures (the OT being ‘the scriptures’ at that time). The OT itself shows how god prepared his people for the arrival of ‘the messiah’, Jesus.
Jesus himself was a Jew and under obligation to obey the Law of the OT (he came ‘to fulfil the Law, not destroy it’). He broke none of the Laws of the OT, though he DID break the petty additions to the Law that had had been added by the priesthood, etc. But Jesus believed in and taught the worship of the god of the OT. The only difference being that he emphasised LOVE where the OT emphasised RETRIBUTION. But love and retribution are present in both the OT and the NT. Read Revelation sometime!!

2. You believe in Jesus, I think? And in what he taught? Ok. Jesus believed in the reality of Adam and Eve.
Also, modern science has discovered that mankind did in fact originate with one pair of human ancestors. (Adam & Eve, Ug & Ugluk, Bobble & Burp, whatever).

3. Some of the bible is symbolic. It usually says so when it is. But a great deal of it is just plain old provable history, plus poetry and prophecy.

4. Maybe. But when the NT was written there were still people living who would have KNOWN if the writers were making up fictions about Jesus. As it was, not even his enemies seem to have denied the miracles. They just hated him for doing them. I personally am not aware of any documents outside the bible, written by contemporaries of the bible writers, who denied the miracles. (Anyone knows of any I would be interested to see the references, please).
Anyway, medical science today performs what would seem like miracles to people who lived less than 100 years ago. Who is to say that Jesus did not know some way to effect cures that we have not yet discovered, even if you don’t believe the power came from god, as he said?

5. Leaving aside the bible now. Just my opinions:
Evil = harmful. Good = beneficial. People perform many harmful (evil) actions. Therefore evil exists.
Evil as a disembodied force of badness does not.

6. Oh, come ON! Try this on for size instead:
‘If you can ask the question there must be an answer. We just don’t know what it is – YET!’

 

"6. Oh, come ON! Try this on for size instead:
‘If you can ask the question there must be an answer. We just don’t know what it is – YET!’"

Isn't that what I just said in my posts?! And, I have noticed, you contantly refer that Jesus wrote the Bible. If that is true, he probably would've written in the first person. And anyways, if he actually wrote the Bible, how did all the other religions get it if he was a Jew? And how on earth can he write like a computer?!

 

Actually we have managed to figure out how they built the pirimids. However you are correct that there are structurs that we cnat explaine such as stonehenge and then there is that city of myth known as Atlantas.

How Stonehenge was created and if atlantas ever existed we dont know.

 

LGW – please don’t bow out! I like you! Regarding the points you made:
1. How do you define justice?
2. ‘’ ‘’ ‘’ ‘’ right & wrong?
3. Is any definition apart from god anything but an opinion?
4. We need a transcendent Law-Giver.
5. Accusing god without granting his existence.

My responses:
1. OED definitions of ‘just’ and ‘justice’
Just: Latin justus – law, right. Upright and impartial; equitable; fair; faithful, constant.
Justice: The quality of being (morally) just or righteous; the principle of just dealing; just conduct; integrity, rectitude.

Justice, therefore, is the ability to act fairly in judging between harm and benefit and acting accordingly. It requires FAIRNESS and INTEGRITY.

2. Right = beneficial. Wrong = harmful.
Therefore:
(a) If an action – like rape – seems to benefit YOU but harms ANOTHER, then it is inherently WRONG.
(b) If an action harms YOU AND ANOTHER/OTHERS it is inherently WRONG.
(c) If an action does not harm you but benefits another it is GOOD.
(d) If an action harms YOU but benefits another – like saving a life at the expense of your own – it is NOT ‘inherently’ good – it is SELF-SACRIFICINGLY GOOD.

3 & 4. If good = beneficial and bad = harm (which nature/instinct shows to be the case), then we need no recourse to gods to define right and wrong. Even animals behave in ways that will benefit themselves and their group, and avoid things that will cause harm, although they do not have the intelligence for such concepts as ‘rape’, ‘theft’, etc. Knowledge of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ (benefit and harm) is natural and instinctive in all living things – even microbes. Human intelligence has formulated this basic survival/life-enhancing knowledge into a set of basic laws that are common to all nations and religious creeds (they only vary in the detail).
The reason people do wrong is because they want a personal ‘benefit’ they feel unable to obtain legitimately.

5. You have a point! However, since people can (and do!) have debates about fictional characters in literature, I reckon I can do the same! Also, I think I am accusing the bible and religion in general as much as I accuse god(s). The bible describes the character and actions of its god, and religion is responsible for the peoples’ perception of the ‘truth’ about that god.
I merely wish to point out certain things about that god – certain actions that, if done by humans, would be universally condemned as unjust or even downright wicked. Why should what is ‘bad’ when done by man be ‘good’ when done by god?
We need to look at this god that so many trust in or believe they worship, and see him as the bible actually portrays him, rather than the person most people seem to think he is. You can’t see the garden till you get rid of the garbage.

Shadow Thief:
I’d really like to see that e-mail on the devil!
If I may comment on your other post to DS: I think we do not so much need law-givers as arbitrators (Judges)


Divine Shadow
Sorry to but in on your conversation with ST, but I just couldn’t pass up your comment that ‘unexplainable things’ are ‘proof divine beings exist’!
NOTHING is unexplainable! If we can ask the question we can find the answer – some things just take a little longer, lol!
And – why does there have to be a ‘point’? What ‘purpose’ do you think the other races (I presume you mean animals?) have? I am interested to know.
You are right about us being good at invention!

ShadowThief:
Just a little comment: I think you will find a good many of those ancient rituals and beliefs have been adopted by christianity. They are not lost at all. Oh, dear me, no!!

Addition for ST, having just read your last post. This is what you wrote:
'If it can't be answered...it doesn't exist.'
I guess I misunderstood your grammer - sorry! It sounds like the reverse of what you meant if you are saying I said the same as you!

And - you say I 'keep saying Jesus wrote the bible'. When? Where? I have never even thought it, never mind said it! Of course he did not!

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 04, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 04, 2001).]

 

I'm responding to "Evil = Harmful and Good = Beneficial". It has been noted, previously in this thread, that most cultures have the same ideas of good and evil. This is true within a vary narrow sphere only: the mostly universal view is that actions that harm others are evil, and actions that benefit others are good. Furthermore, this is generally true only of the laity- priests, prophets and gods are judged by entirely other standards and in fact are often admired for acts that would be considered evil if performed under other circumstances (e.g. torture, human sacrifice).

Many religions include a second category of evil as well: vice, which can generally be interpreted as "things that are fun and aren't particularly good for you". Most Christians think homosexual and premarital sex is evil, and many would add drinking and drugs as well- yet these things can only very tenously be linked to the idea of 'harming others'. Catholics and Orthodox Christian priests would generally be annoyed if you suggested drinking alcohol was a sin, but most Evangelical Christians are certain this is so. But avoiding gossip, malicious rumours, unkind personal comments etc has fallen out of favour as a goal of the religious 'good'- no matter how much pain these cause, almost no one seems to think of them as evil anymore.

Large numbers of even non-religious people in North America have added yet another category of evil: fun actions that might, conceivably, be harming yourself, such as smoking or eating high-fat foods. In France, where I am from, this is generally believed to be a legacy of the Puritans. I am personally more tempted to blame vanity and California.