Religious Curiousity

Remove all ads!

The Big Green Priest's Guide to the Problem of Evil
Some of those involved in this discussion (most recently amaster) have not questioned a supreme deity's existence, per se, but you've offered that if an all-powerful being does exist, he must be a real SOB to let all this Bad Stuff happen.
--------------------------------------
I read your post (from which I quote the beginning, above) with interest.
But, even with the scriptures you quote and cite, I am afraid I fail to see your reasoning on this point.

Would YOU stand by and watch thugs beat up your best mate - or even someone you don't specially like - on the basis that to interfere would be taking away the right of free will of the thugs to beat him up, and your mate's right to defend himself unassisted????
I do not think either your friend or a Court of Law would commend you for doing so! On the contrary, you would be condemned as an accessory, along with the thugs!!
If you apply both those points to god - sorry for spelling it out, but most christians fail to get it - he stands condemned as an accessory before (he KNEW what was going to happen, according to christians), during (he stands by and lets things happen without lifting a theoretical finger), and after (no retribution) the fact of whatever bad thing occurs as a consequence of 'man's inhumanity to man'.
To simply excuse it on the basis of 'it wouldn't be right for god to interfere with our god-given free will', is about as valid as a vet standing by while a kitten is tortured or your mate is beaten up.
What sort of reason is that?
I am not trying to be unpleasant here - just asking a friendly question of all you 'believers', because I just can't understand how you can buy that 'free will' excuse. It wouldn't wash in a Lawcourt, why should it wash for god?

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited July 31, 2001).]

 

Because...God has given us free will, wich means evil teoretically has free reign.
And I guess that is why we are here.
To stop it.
Everything has a meaning somehow.
Even evil things. Because...evil spawns goodness just as goodness spawns evil.
If bad things in life didn't happen, we wouldn't love good things.

 

Fljotsdale asked: <<I am not trying to be unpleasant here - just asking a friendly question of all you 'believers', because I just can't understand how you can buy that 'free will' excuse. It wouldn't wash in a Lawcourt, why should it wash for god?>>

BGP: I have hunted and fished a lot in my life. I have not only stood by as others have hunted and fished, but have myself killed and eaten animals.

I have watched bunnies munch on helpless heads of lettuce and carrots. I did not stop them.

I have witnessed my son and daughter engage in forbidden behaviors, things that would likely result in bumps and bruises. I judged it wise to wait and allow the consequences to occur.

I offer that you and I, decent people (though I wouldn't call us good), allow suffering and pain to occur around us (even to ourselves; ever exercised?) because of greater good. Sentient creatures do it all the time.

Second, we do not have a problem of evil, Fl. We have a problem of good.

That is, after humanity has given God the Cosmic Finger for so long, even reportedly killing his Son, turning down the unbelievable deal in the Garden, and so forth, what is inexplicable is that there is one moment of goodness in this bleeding bunion of a planet.

My problem (and yours, if your posts are reflective of your true thoughts) is that we think we have cosmic rights; we think God owes us something. We think we have been good enough or smart enough or (fill in the blank) enough to put the Deity in our debt. That he has the moral ought to make our lives happy, clean, and fun.

Speaking merely for myself, I suck. My life should be a reflection of that vast sucking sound, but in fact, it is not. Why? Why are things not as bad as I deserve? If the God of the Bible claims to be a perfect judge, and perfect judges don't let cosmic criminals off the hook, how come I'm alive and not dead or worse?

Think about that. More later. Perhaps part two of my previous post, where I'll offer that since all systems degrade into chaos, humanity does not have the power in their nature (even if we do have free will) to keep from going rotten. And all without God injecting us with unbelief or sin--he's just letting natural, sin-tainted processes run their course. The "why" he would allow that intersects with our discussion.

Until again,

bgp

 

Fljotsdale,

Free will, being 'free', necessarily must allow for negative consequences. If God had not given you free will, and allowed you to use it, you would yell and scream that it wasn't fair. We all would. We do not want to be robots. And so we desire the opportunity to choose for ourselves whether we want to do good or evil, understanding that this means the possibility of both positive consequences and negative consequences. And since we do not live in a vacuum, our granted desire for free means that we all suffer from the negative effects of not only our individual evil choices, but also our collective evil choices.

We are like a petulant two year old who, when their father tries to put their dinner plate in front of them, yells "No, Daddy! I do! I do!". And the child grabs the plate and ends up flinging everything onto the floor and making a big mess. The petulant two year old then looks up at his father and expects him both to clean up the mess and to restore his dinner to him.

Parents graciously do that, out of love for their children. And God has graciously done that for us, because of His love for us. God is good, and good parents reflect the goodness of God in the love and pity they have toward their children.

BTW, your part about God being guilty because He is not retributive is entirely false. God is retributive, in full. You mistake God's patience and forbearance for lack of justice. God is as just as He is good, and His justice ultimately is not slack. We just do not see it in full now.

I am not sure how else it could work. God has given us what we desire -- free will. He is just in His judgment regarding our choices, and He is emminently gracious in providing forgiveness through His only-begotten Son. That is good, good, and good in my book.

 

Posted by DivineShadow
Because...God has given us free will, wich means evil teoretically has free reign.
And I guess that is why we are here.
To stop it.
Everything has a meaning somehow.
Even evil things. Because...evil spawns goodness just as goodness spawns evil.
If bad things in life didn't happen, we wouldn't love good things.
----------------------------------------

Errrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmm..... So, you are saying evil is good, huh? ROFL!

 

Oops. I DID wonder if it sounded right!
But I DO believe the 2 things are connected.
There is...HAS to be a balance in all things. For example: A tyrannic government spawns people willing to fight for their freedom. Likewise there will always exist people who want's to control others.
There can not be 2 skies!

 

Hullo, BigGreenPriest!

Fljotsdale sighs for pure happiness!

My comments on your comments!
------------
Hunting & Fishing: Human beings are omnivores. Rabbits are herbivores. There is nothing wrong with eating other living things. We would die if we did not. Every living thing lives off other living things. So long as you hunt and fish for food there can be no objection. Hunting simply for the pleasure of killing things, on the other hand, is degrading. We tend to look down on animals that are perceived as doing so – like foxes in a chicken run.
----------

Child behaviour – danger: Yes, surely, but I doubt you would stand by and permit them to do life-threatening activities like handle high explosives, play with loaded guns, tinker with live wiring, go swimming in polluted or otherwise dangerous water, would you? And if you do, I reckon the State would have you for culpable neglect. And Mankind is a mere child in the eyes of your god, yes?
-------
Greater Good: Oh? Its for the greater good, is it, when millions of children suffer and die every year from starvation, disease, neglect? When their parents die of AIDS leaving them orphaned and helpless? When paedophiles (hate that word – they DON’T love children) abuse little children? For the greater good when intellectuals are imprisoned and tortured by their governments/religions for daring to stand up for what is right? I could go on all night! For the greater good? Come off it!
-----
Problem of good, not evil: How do you work that out? If you leave mankind’s gods out of the equation, the average human being is a pretty decent person (though cities have a lot to answer for, imo). S/he looks out for family, neighbours, friends; gives to charities, looks after stray animals, etc. Introduce gods and what do you get? The most vicious and hate-filled wars in human history. ‘Tisn’t the planet that is the bleeding bunion… It is a beautiful place. And most people are basically good – or at least, harmless.
----
Thinking god owes me something: Not me. I’m an Atheist. Since I have no belief in any god how can I expect anything from any god? I believe that HUMANS owe each other to make the world a better place to be.
---
God letting you off the hook: Errrmmm….. have you considered where that remark is leading? The fact IS that very many criminals – the clever ones – have a MUCH nicer life than you or I, or the millions scrabbling a living in poverty in this world. God is obviously letting them off the hook even more than you… so the poor, miserable, starving, unfortunates must be paying for the sins of the rich. Nice one, god. (I know that is not what you were implying – it is just where your remark was going).
-----
OK about entropy, but humans going rotten? In what way? If you mean we all die and rot in the ground, then sure. But if you are saying we are all morally rotten, I beg to disagree. I look forward to seeing your next episode!

Hi, LittlegreenwormJacob!

I understand your argument, but I wonder if you get the point of mine? I don't believe in any god at all, but I would not stand by when I can take action to rescue someone/something from a harmful situation. Some years ago I was in a position to be able to save a young woman from rape. I had a companion with me who just wanted to go away and forget it. He was a young, strong man of 20. I was an unfit 50yr old. Guess who drove off the rapist?
Which of us was right? I interfered with the free will of the rapist. The young man would have 'passed by on the other side'. I ask again - which of us was right? Was the young woman pleased I had saved her? Yes. Was the rapist pleased? No.
I ask you - was it right to interfere?
In the same way, only wicked people would object to a god interfering to save those suffering harm.
And its no good saying god will put it all right later on, or in heaven, or whatever... Its like the vet standing by and letting a kitten be tortured because 'he can fix it later'. (see an earlier post of mine)
Saying it would be wrong for a god to interfere to protect the helpless is a specious argument that would not stand up in a court of Law.
Sorry if I offend anyone, but that is my take on the matter.

[

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited July 31, 2001).]

 

Fljotsdale,

Thanks for your comments.

I understand that from an atheistic worldview, my comments don't answer your objections. We disagree about the nature of man, as in your universe, man is our only hope.

But notice that your critique only applies if you actually take on several important presuppositions of my worldview--that there is a moral standard, that one should be couragious instead of cowardly, that the woman was not a grown-up germ but a human with value, and so forth.

As an admitted atheist, you can't even *critique* my worldview unless you borrow theological and moral capital from it.

Repeating myself for emphasis: You are saying the God of the Bible is the equivalent of a man who will watch, without concern, the rape of a woman, and then walk away.

My question to you, at this point not arguing for the existence of said God, is on what basis do you make moral arguments about what the God of the Bible should or should not do? I can't see a basis except for borrowing worldview capital from the Theist, even more revolting to you, the Biblical Theists.

Thus: Your objections actually confirm, rather than deny, the usefulness and your inner reliance on the ideas undergirding the Biblical God.

You've got to think about that before you go and call a deity a child-murderer, accessory to rape, and so forth.

It isn't as easy as you think, putting God on trial.

bgp

 

I just love people like you, BGP! Two of my favourite occupations are writing and debating – but you can’t have a decent debate with people who have either no convictions or are unable to explain them!
I am numbering your paragraphs to make it easier for other people to follow, and including them in this answer.

1. I understand that from an atheistic worldview, my comments don't answer your objections. We disagree about the nature of man, as in your universe, man is our only hope.

True.

2. But notice that your critique only applies if you actually take on several important presuppositions of my worldview--that there is a moral standard, that one should be couragious instead of cowardly, that the woman was not a grown-up germ but a human with value, and so forth.

Do moral standards, then, originate with a belief in a god? Are moral standards the prerogative of people with a belief in a god? I think not. Without in any way anthropomorphising the animal kingdom, it has been observed that even animals have a ‘moral code’ of sorts, inasmuch as they nurture their young, protect group members, and display caring behaviour towards one another – even some insects do this, indicating that such behaviour is instinctive/genetic. I do not see that the human development of such basic behaviour into a unwritten ‘moral code’/written law code HAS to be god-given. The argument that it is simply a development based on human intellect is just as plausible, if not more so. Even animals behave in a way that seems to indicate they place a value on the lives of others within their group, and act courageously in defence of their own. ‘Courage’ is not exclusively human, any more than is ‘cowardice’.
It is my opinion that the standards were there before we created the gods.


3. As an admitted atheist, you can't even *critique* my worldview unless you borrow theological and moral capital from it.

To repeat from point 2, I do not ‘borrow’ theological and moral capital from your worldview; what you perceive as a christian/religious worldview is in fact simply a HUMAN worldview. Religion has naturally adopted the basic instincts of nurturing and group care/protection as the basis for their tenets of belief/conduct. All religions have the same moral/conduct codes, the same basic worldview. It is only in petty doctrinal matters that they vary. But the worldview of both atheist and theist is the same, and is based on natural human behaviour. How could it be otherwise?


4. Repeating myself for emphasis: You are saying the God of the Bible is the equivalent of a man who will watch, without concern, the rape of a woman, and then walk away.

Yes.

5. My question to you, at this point not arguing for the existence of said God, is on what basis do you make moral arguments about what the God of the Bible should or should not do? I can't see a basis except for borrowing worldview capital from the Theist, even more revolting to you, the Biblical Theists.

On the basis of having spent 25 years or so as a practising christian . I have not only read the bible many times but studied it intensively. I am therefore far more familiar with the biblical god than most of those who profess to worship him. I have also undertaken a brief and partial overview of other major world religions and their basic tenets of conduct. Besides which, I have an abiding interest in evolutionary theory, the origins of humanity, and ‘life, the universe and everything’ (to borrow from Douglas Adams).

6. Thus: Your objections actually confirm, rather than deny, the usefulness and your inner reliance on the ideas undergirding the Biblical God.

Not so. My objections merely show a knowledge of the biblical god, and the bible’s reliance on human morals and behaviour!

7. You've got to think about that before you go and call a deity a child-murderer, accessory to rape, and so forth.

It is BECAUSE I have a knowledge of the bible god that I can make those claims.

8. It isn't as easy as you think, putting God on trial.

Yes it is! And WE SHOULD! A god ought at least to live up to the standards it claims as it’s own. Preferably, it’s standards ought to be infinitely greater than the standards of the people who worship it.
Sadly, all the gods man has created, including the bible god, fall far short. ALL those gods display both the highest of standards and the lowest – just like human beings!
This is not to say I am unaware of the ‘acts of loving kindness’ credited to god in the bible – I am fully aware of them. But I am also aware of things that many ‘believers’ either never notice or choose to ignore: little things like the times god was gulled by the unscrupulous – King Ahab springs to mind, for one - big things that god has either perpetrated himself or caused ‘his people’ to perpetrate: mass murders, ethnic cleansings. For example, The Flood and the take-over of the Promised Land – “Let not your eye feel sorry,” said god, as he ordered the slaughter of the native inhabitants, including women and children.
We condemn countries like Bosnia for such conduct, but it is apparently ok for god!
HUMAN moral standards can see that such conduct is inherently wrong, BGP, which means that OUR moral standards are actually higher than those of the gods, even if our conduct does not always reflect those standards – BUT A GOD’S STANDARDS ought to be above ours in both principle and CONDUCT. A god’s standards and conduct should not reflect those of its worshippers.
We created our gods in OUR image; WE were not created in the image of our gods. IMHO, of course!!

I am only Atheist regarding the gods of this world. Regarding the reality of a creator of this universe I am Agnostic. But one thing I am sure of: if this universe was the result of an act of creation rather than of an accident, or the result of some yet unknown scientific Law, then the creator of it is far and away superior to any of the petty beings human religions offer us as worthy of worship.
The bible has two things going for it, imo: (a) The bible account of creation is by far the most scientifically plausible of any (baring the time factor); (b) Jesus. Good guy. Sensible, practical, and passionate in his beliefs. A bit lacking in a sense of humour, perhaps, but most religieux are, as are the ‘sacred’ books of religions in general. Though the bible god is sometimes shown as having a nice line in sarcasm!

I look forward to further conversations with you, BGP!


[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 01, 2001).]

 

Fljotsdale I don't wan't to insult you but, you are twisting everything everyone says!
LGW said we were given free will because God doesn't wan't robots.
Then you say, that if that is true it's acting against the will of God to stop rape?!
And God isn't just watching.
He is constantly trying to lead us in the right direction.
And...you judge God from what the Bible says.
But what IS the Bible? It's just a book!
A book written by humans, and therefore meaningless. It's darn smart to first slaugther someone and then make it sound like God wanted it.
And who says God wanted it that way?
The person who wrote it.
Besides...the "Bible God" always intervened and killed people that didn't follow him.
And we know God never intervenes.
Therefore the acts of the "Bible God" are false.

[This message has been edited by Divine Shadow (edited August 01, 2001).]

 

DS,

Just to clarify a bit, I am not trying to explain WHY God granted us free will; simply that He has granted us free will, and that free will is what we want to have.

Since we want to have free will, trying to convict God of crimes against humanity because of the results of our own freely chosen actions makes no sense. It is simply an attempt to relieve man of the responsibility that comes with free will.

DS -- you seem to think, if I am judging correctly, that man cannot define God. That we cannot wrap our arms around God and say "This is what God is like". I am guessing that is why you reject the Bible -- you see it as just that.

But what about the flip side of that coin? Cannot the God who made us choose of His own free will to reveal Himself to us? Does it not make tremendous sense that He would do so?

And so we must ask ourselves: in what way(s) has God revealed Himself to us, so that we will know what He is like and what He expects of us? The question is far too important for us to answer using gut instinct or our own formulations of God.

And so I ask you: How has God chosen to communicate to us in such a way that we all can know what He is like?

Gregg

 

Correction on one part, we don't need animals to live. And, we didn't used to need animals to live either. Adam and Eve lived off the trees in the Garden of Eden for it is said that they provided a person with everything that they needed. The only problem is, of course, that they screwed up. There was a point where God said to only eat plants. Then later, he assured us that eating animals was alright too.

I am nearly a vegitarian. I like meat, I just don't eat it hardly ever because of health reasons.

 

Divine Shadow: Huh? I get the distinct feeling you are misquoting me. I find most of your post incomprehensible, I'm afraid, and little of it seems to apply to anything I have posted.

Is English your second language? I know it can be difficult for non-native-English speakers to express themselves clearly in a language not their own. I myself do not speak any other language at all, so I'm not being critical of your efforts . I must apologise for finding your post puzzling, when you must have tried hard to be clear.


Vile: Nice post! You are quite correct about Adam & Eve being vegetarian. It was after the flood that god told Noah that they could eat the flesh of animals, but with the proviso that the blood be drained out of it first. One has to presume that it was because the flood had caused as much damage to the vegetation as it had to the human and animal life. Though there is some question about the universality of the flood... But if it WAS universal (and true!) then it is an instance of mass murder, is it not? And a lack of concern for the animal life destroyed.... mind you, god did express some regret about it later, if I remember correctly - so that makes it ok, doesn't it?

LittleGreenWorm Are you the same person as Littlegreenwormjacob? Just curious.
Anyway - Free will. I believe we have free will, so far as our genetic makeup permits. But I do not think I get it from a god. Denying the existence of a god does not let me off responsibility, though! On the contrary, it gives me greater responsiblity, both for my own actions and for the state of the planet and everything living on this planet.
What I thought I had made clear in my posts was that people who believe in god(s) do not hold them to account for their conduct. Since I am most familiar with the bible god, I cite from bible examples - the Flood, the massacre of the native inhabitants of The Promised Land, etc - and asking how such actions would be viewed in a present day Court of Law if perpetrated by human beings. It seems that gods can get away with murder.
Why should they? Why should we not question their actions and their motives? If the god(s) are real, as their worshippers believe, then those gods are responsible for their actions and their lack of action.
You talk about us being responsible because we choose to behave in certain ways - yes, I agree with that - but, come on - would YOU stand by and not take action if you saw someone being attacked? You reckon the VICTIM is exercising free will? You reckon all those starving babies in Africa and other lands are exercising free will? Of course they are not! They are VICTIMS of the wrongful exercise of free will by others! What do WE do when we apprehend a person using free will to do wrong? We put that person in prison and REMOVE the free execise of his/her will in most areas of his/her life. Why do we do it? TO PROTECT society from their free will.
Now, if WE do that - why the devil don't the god(s) of you believers?
Sorry for getting heated about it, but I am not personally attacking you or anyone on this forum - you all seem like pretty nice people - It's just that I don't see any logic in the reasoning believers use. No doubt you will feel the same about my reasoning, LOL!



[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 01, 2001).]

 

Just to butt my nose in, all this talk of free will (i call it free agency) is great. I've been reading all your posts, and it's obvious you guys have pretty much got your minds set. My point of view, though, is that free agency is just one aspect of the 'big picture'. What should be asked is what is our purpose for being here, on this planet. There's ideas of mankind improving himself, living towards a greater reward, just a great cosmic joke. Whatever. Free agency is just an aspect of that question. Why are we here? Where did we come from? Where are we going? I've got my beliefs, what are yours?

 

Hi, Relic!
The old universal questions, hey?
Why are we here? where did we come from? where are we going?
Since the world's greatest minds throughout history have failed to come up with a consensus on 'em, how do you expect us to answer them, lol?! But I'm sure we'll all try!
My two cents worth:

Why are we here? Um. Does there HAVE to be a reason? Even if we accept creation by a god, that still doesn't tell us WHY the god created us, or what purpose the god may have had... I don't think any religion spells out WHY a god made mankind... though I could be wrong on that. The bible doesn't say, anyway.

Where did we come from? All religions have their creation myths - the bible says we came from the dust of the ground - I vaguely remember another religion teaching that we came from the tears of the god...
Science pretends it almost knows how how life originated on earth - but there are a number of conflicting theories... So no wiser there then.

Where are we going? To hell in a basket, probably... if you believe in hell... if you think we could fit in a basket...


[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited August 02, 2001).]

 

Yes english IS my second language.
I'll try again: Your opinion on God is based upon what you have read in the Bible.
The God in the Bible always intervenes and kills people. But God never intervenes directly. Therefore the Bible can't be the truth...it's only a vain attempt to make genocide sound heroic.
But why don't the gods do anything?
I guess it's a manner of principles.
If they stopped evil whenever they found it ...then what constitutes evil? In that case there has to be rules. And what happens when there are rules? People find loop-holes.
There are plenty of examples of that happening in the law system.
So...if that happened we would live in Hitler-world.
All people had to act and think the same or they would get punished.
Besides goodness has to come from the heart.
You can't force people to be it!
So what CAN a god do to make people good?
Odin disguised himself and travelled all over the world in order to push people in the direction he wanted.
The nordic gods (aser) couldn't intervene directly because, they weren't allowed to by the others kind of gods (vaner and jætter).
Just like countries with nukes that doesn't fire them because the others would use theirs too.
If any of them intervened it would start Ragnarok.
The christian god created Jesus, which is why I CHOSE ( and not because I grew up with that religion) to worship him/her.
Other gods push people. The christian god
directs people.
Ugh. I hope I got it right this time.

 

Fljotsdale, greetings. I just had to jump in this conversation. I hope to see more people share their ideas on those questions. Makes for me understanding people a lot better. I'm coming from a very insular environment, very sheltered, and thought I've seen a lot of the world now, there's still a lot of things I just want to understand in the way people are. After I see a lot of what others think and feel about this, I'll try and put words into my thoughts.

 

Divine Shadow
Gosh - thank goodness! I was worried in case you WERE a native-English-speaker and I'd inadvertantly insulted you!

Yeah, that last post is fine - I understand your points and your reasoning. To a large extent I go along with you. My opinion of the biblical god IS based on what I have read about him in the bible. Actually, though, the bible god did intervene directly at times - the Flood being one instance, and Jonah another. But most times he did use his own people to do his dirty work. I don't like him one little bit. As I guess you figured out, lol!
There are good arguments in favour of the bible being reasonably accurate historically, however - it is not a book to be dismissed out of hand. What it SAYS about moral conduct is true. Even if the god didn't follow the morals at all times himself.
You are also right about the human ability to find loopholes! And, no, you couldn't have a god charging in every time a person put a foot wrong - even Odin didn't do that (BTW, I have an interest in Nordic mythology, I studied Old Icelandic at university)- but why should it be beyond god to quietly make the crops grow where people were starving? Or to direct governments to think and act sensibly? After all, he could send out angels to deceive King Ahab!! He could send down plagues on Egypt!! A spot of intervention doesn't seem to be something he objects to!
But you did get one thing wrong - you seem not to like the bible or the god of the bible, (a Christian holy book as well as parts of it being sacred to Judaism and Islam), yet you say you approve of the christian god. The christian god IS the god of the bible! Though most christians believe that the bible teaches that Jesus god. I do not.
Don't get me wrong - I like the man Jesus. But he is not god, never was, never will be, and the bible doesn't say he is, either.
Anyway - we agree on more things than we thought we did, hey?

 

Fljotsdale,

First, yes I am the same person as LGWj. I was requested to shorten my name.

I am not sure if you are arguing that God does not exercise justice, or that God should not allow free choices to be made. You seem to be arguing both at the same time, though those are two dinstinctly different thoughts.

If you believe that God does not exercise justice -- does not punish the rapist, for instance -- I can assure you that He does. We see it in our daily lives, in the ways that our lives are adversely effected by our individual and corporate (universally aggregated) decisions. But we will not see if fully until Judgment Day; that day when time as we know it will cease, and God will judge each of us according to our works. Again, you confuse forebearance and patience -- time to repent and seek forgiveness -- with lack of action.

To quote 2 Peter 3:3-15:

"First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation..."

It is precisely the execution of God's justice -- such as the great flood and the conquest of Canaan -- that you find unpalatable, while at the same time trying to convict God for not rendering justice. DS is quite right -- you are contradicting yourself. Either you want God to be just, and accept the destruction of rebellion from His midst, or you do not want God to be just, in which case the thought of unpunished rapists and such should not bother you. Since God is just, it would make more sense to start from that fact and ask how that should affect our beliefs and conduct.

LGW

 

Quite long, quite long...
I am born a Christrien, therefore, I have to believe in God, don't I? But don't bother answering that question, answer this: Everone should believe in God.

If God made Adam and Eve as the first humans, then they would believe in God right? They would teach their children to believe in God therefore the generations would all believe in God. So, everyone believes in God. If I am correct, Adam and Eve were both white people. So, how the hell did we get black people?!(No offense meant. I think black people are *really* cool) Everyone would relate to Adam and Eve, so therefore, everyone is related. Also, *everyone* would pray because they believe in God. Therefore, *I* would have to go to church, but since I don't, I am a sinner. Everyone is a sinner, no matter how much they love God. Since I don't believe in God, then I am a devil, therefore getting banished to Hell when I die. I do not believe that either. Therefore my soul will be tortured forever. I do not believe that either. Therefore, I have abused God.

I believe when I die, my body will get lost forever, or I will get buried, hopefully, in a decent grave. And since all tomes say RIP, My soul will not get tortured in Hell.