Religion...

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I think you are taking cultural relativity a bit too far. Modern connotations of cults are negative, and don't even have to be religious (occult cults, cults personality). I think a more appropriate term is NRM - new religious movement, which IMO is a fairer phrase. By definition, Christianity, Islam, etc. were all at one time NRM's, but whether or not they arecharacteristic of organizations like the Church of Scientology, the People's Temple, etc. is a much less tenable argument.

Also, Felinoid, I'm not sure what reference you used, but I'm sure something like Wikipedia will provide much elaborations between differences of a cult and religion. (Not that any encyclopedia is a totally definitive text on something as is.)

 

Must...resist...echoing...English teacher...

Connotation is what the feeling of a word is, and in this case yes it's negative; DEnotation is the actual definition. Many people get these confused. If you'd read my post past the point where your quote of it stopped, you'd see the reason that the current connotation is negative. However, that does not change the denotation.

EDIT:
Ohhhh, I wouldn't trust Wikipedia with the definition of something as delicate as the term "cult". I used my own dictionary here at home.

 

This statement is entirely wrong. Wicca is recognized as an official religion by most major religions, and wiccans are widespread across culturally and religiously tolerant societies. To say that Wiccans are just hippie teenagers is as ignoirant and sterotyping as saying all Christians are crazy cultists. As to the "neo-pagans" you described, Svyatoslav, I suppose they are distinct to Europe, as in America we don't have pagan roots to get back to, and those who decide to worship pagan gods/goddesses tend to choose to worship gods/goddesses that they feel the deepest connection to personally.

 

I do know the difference, really. I've had an English teacher too. But whether you are using something as supposedly unreliable as Wikipedia or the dictionary next to you, but certainly experts will differ on what a cult is exactly. And connotation or not, the word cult today means more than number. I find it pretty facetious to think that being a vast minority counts as a cult (again, considering the more neutral term of NRM).

In my opinion, cults today (Unification Church, Scientology, etc.) also differ from mainstream religions in that I just can't see them lasting 500 years from now. Perhaps Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. have lasted so long because a) they carry cultural implications with them and b) because they resonate with their followers more on a level of simple dogma.

I'm inclined to think that is true to some extent. Of course, I also can't take certain Christians or atheists seriously either, since plenty of beliefs are just fashionable at a certain time or place.

 

That would be me. The program reported that there were 30 million members, and I assumed - since all the major evangelical ministers they listed were U.S. citizens - that the majority of their membership comes from the U.S. I'm sure there are some members who live outside the U.S., but not many. Also, just from personal observation, there are a lot of evangelicals in the U.S. I know several of them, and there are several more of them on these boards.

 

From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary.

evan·ge·list
Pronunciation: i-'van-j&-list
Function: noun
1 often capitalized : a writer of any of the four Gospels
2 : a person who evangelizes; specifically : a Protestant minister or layman who preaches at special services
- - - - - - -- - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -
: evan·ge·lize
Pronunciation: i-'van-j&-"lIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -lized; -liz·ing
transitive senses
1 : to preach the gospel to
2 : to convert to Christianity

- - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -
Wic·ca
Pronunciation: 'wi-k&
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from Old English wicca wizard -- more at WITCH
: a religion influenced by pre-Christian beliefs and practices of western Europe that affirms the existence of supernatural power (as magic) and of both male and female deities who inhere in nature, and that emphasizes ritual observance of seasonal and life cycles
- Wiccan

Here in the US of A the ones I have met are more apt to be women of all ages and certainly not 'hippie teenagers'.

One of the biggest problems with any debate is the agreement on what words mean.

 

Deepfae,

So I suppose we both have come across different types of "Wiccans". I have never met one who was not a) hippie teenager b) weirdo c) misguided teenager who changes religion as if it was clothes d) adept of new age POP culture - read, it is "cool" and fashionable to be a Wiccan. Basically, variations of these 4 points, or a mix of them altogether.
I am aware that Wiccan is based upon old Celtic mythology/spirituality, which I find "ok". The problem lies within the wiccans proper - at least the ones I have seen/heard of.
As to those pagans I am reffering myself to, there are some of them in the US as well. They tend to hail germanic pantheon.

 

My experience with Wicca is similar to Nakia's. I note that there are many more women than men, and many of the women tend to be older - considerably older than teens anyway.

As far as evengelicals go, I wasn't using the term as Nakia defined it. I think there is a distinction that needs to be made there. All Evangelicals are Protestants, but not all Protestants are Evangelicals. Kind of like a rectangle-square analogy.

 

Incidentally, I have several friends who are Wiccan/pagan and they range from people on their teens to quite a few folks old enough to be to be my mother.

To equate all Wiccans/neopagans with teenagers or hippies or wannabes would be the same as to equate all Christins with Bible-thumping Televangelists.

 

I never put all pagans in those categories. Hell, I even gave a somewhat detailed description of some pagans in nazi and Nationalist circles, and they fit nothing on those categories - quite the opposite. I said the Wiccan brand I have encountered are like that. It is you who is equating Wiccan = neo-pagan.
Now, maybe we would reach some progress in discussing, if you would be willing to properly read my posts, or don't purposely misquote me.

 

Without commenting which branch is supposed to be right, isn't what you describe similar to what, for example, Martin Luther did? Or rather, how it was perceived at the time. I would wager that the view of the majority at the time was along the lines of "what a crazy heretic."

 

Well, I thank HOM for that rousing discussion on the rapture and the tribulation, but I'm not sure I qualify for this discussion. I've only known 1 wiccan, she was a teenager, and she was basically a strange mix of hippie and goth, but taken to a more serious level. Nice girl, really. We had some interesting discussions.

 

Sometimes the border between Pagan and Wicca is so blurred that I felt the need to include both in my statement. After all, Wicca is a subser of paganism. I know a lot of people who are Wiccan despite not using the word because of the "fluffies" (the usual descriptor for the various sorts of wannabes) giving the entire religion a bad name.

 

I don't know who the Wiccans are, but here we have the Klan. They sound somewhat similar except that they are a radical "Christian" cult, but they worship Hilter and the Nordic mythos of war and race, much as Hitler did. They consider themselves to be the "true" Christians and patriots. Of course they are neither. They also hate democracy and advocate the overthrow of the United States government - fine "patriots."

 

Ok,time for some clarification.Wiccans are pagans, but not all pagans are Wiccans. Wicca is one of the few actual pagan spiritual paths that can be techically qualified as a religion, since it has set rituals and common beliefs shared by its followers. Yes, there are many teenage hippie/goths who suscibe to Wicca, thinking it an answer to their spiritual searcing. But there are people who join every religion who think its cool, or are "lost" and become "found" by a religion. Wicca tends to attract more such people because it is new and more tolerant than a lot of religions Furthermore, it is thepeople whoare part of Wicca for the effect rather than actually believing in the Wiccan beliefs are the ones who are proclaim their religion the loudest, and make it the most obvious that theyare Wiccan. The truer Wiccans, and the Wiccans who live a more normal life, tend to be less obvious, and tend to voice their spiritual/religious stance less, which would explain why most people only know the hippie teenagers.

 

When I think of Wicca, I think of Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the Charmed Ones from Charmed, and those three girls from The Craft.

 

Harbourboy, you illustrate my point perfectly. Things like these shows make a lot of people think that Wiccans are teenagers flirting with the idea of the magical and occult because it seems like a cool escape from reality, rather than real people who are devoted to practicing a religion as real as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, ect. Like I said in my previous post, many actual Wiccans tend to keep a low profile, and since they don't hold their religious rites in a church of temple, they're not really noticed unless they are adament about expressing their religious orientation. Mabye its this connotation that all Wiccans are teenage hippies or psuedo-goths that makes them keep their faith to themselves...

 

I think this whole religious argument has left the realm of reality... let people practice whatever they want, as long as they don't physically do anything to harm you, or another, based on their beliefs. If you think they're wrong because their religion contradicts yours, so be it, think they're wrong, but don't make assumptions and judgments that you don't know to be true. Let them practice, or merely believe, and they will do the same for you.

I personally hate all organized religion, and I don't believe in anything, but I don't dislike people of faiths. Many of my friends are religious (in fact, my girlfriend is strongly Jewish), but I have no problem with them. Let pagans be pagans, Wiccans be Wiccans, and drop the argument of whether they are right or wrong... it is belief in a higher being, it can be neither right nor wrong.

 

I agree with you Saber, in fact I firmly believe in letting people do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't interfere/harm someone else, and I believe this extends to religion in all respects. However, this thread's topic is religion, specifically the pros and cons of religion. Granted it has sort of strayed from that by discussing the classifications and beliefs of Christianity (and now Wicca), but people tend to feel the need to defend their religion because of the deep emotions it evokes in one.

 

Hello!

I think we should make a difference between belief and religion.

I am a Christian but I am not religious. Which means I believe in Jesus as my saviour, who died on the cross who ... bla bla bla bla

You get the picture

But I am not a member of any widely spread churches, to press it further I always (when possible) warn people against politically accepted churches because they don't represent the Biblical life of a Christian.

Infact the only authority I accept as final is the Bible so you won't see me burning people on crosses or torturing them labeling them heretics, etc.

Religion has used Gods name for an awful lot of sins so I can't blame people for being scared of Christianity. This is why it is important to make a difference between Churchianity and Christianity.

Or to say it in another form: You have to make a difference between "In Gods name" and "As Gods will wanted to" acts. The latter is very very very underpracticed in todays religious masses. People love dogmas and traditions more .

Oh and to add to the topic a bit too!

As a Christian I feel it is my mission to tell everyone of the possibility of salvation through Jesus but THIS IS AS FAR AS I MAY GO TO NOT SPEAK AGAINST GOD!

Forcing people to believe is unscriptural for we have been given free will to believe what is in the Bible or not. I chose to believe and so I try to tell people about this possibility but if they say "no" I have to sincerely accept their decision (as God does too)

[ March 11, 2006, 12:50: Message edited by: Letharon ]