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Reliable Hosting?

Discussion in 'Techno-Magic' started by Wordplay, Jun 13, 2005.

  1. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
    Latest gem: Glittering Beljuril


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    I'm currently looking for hosting services for my site and I was wondering if any of you know a reliable host that would offer MySQL and PHP support for vBulletin3 forum, enough space and enough bandwidth? Of course, I would be willing to pay of it, but the catch is that my site also offers eBooks that many hosts frown upon (even though I personally see no harm in them).

    So, know any such servers? Preferably outside US and EU? What about the eBooks: do you consider them to be "warez?" I don't think so, but better ask and learn rather than go on blindly. :hmm:

    [ June 13, 2005, 22:51: Message edited by: Wirhe ]
     
  2. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Good luck finding reliable hosts outside US or EU.

    I assume by eBooks you mean books in digital format, but not authorized by any official source? Then they are warez and illegal, pure and simple. Serving copyrighted books is the same as serving warez; you're breaking someone's copyright, and no respectable host is going to let you do that if they notice it (or if someone reports your site).

    Btw, that vB better be legit as well, otherwise your host will be getting a notice from Jelsoft about it, and it'll be going down quickly.

    As long as you keep your site legit, I can host it. And you only need to look at SP to see that I'm reliable. ;)
     
  3. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
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    Sure, sure... They are legit and all. No worries about that until proven otherwise. But let's just ignore SP for now, if just to give other, even more reliable hosts chance to shine. Hosts whose ToS specifically say that they do not take any responsibility over the content of the hosted site (a.k.a: no self-censorship by service provider). :square:

    Anyway, by what you said; eBooks are illegal because they break someone's copyright. Okay, I won't contest that, but here is another question: does sharing them damage the industry in any way, decrease the sales of paperbacks, or take the bread from the writer? I thinking the "law vs. morality" -issue here. I.e: law says it is illegal, but is widely accepted as a good thing.

    [ June 14, 2005, 17:27: Message edited by: Wirhe ]
     
  4. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Considering our server hasn't been down unless for scheduled maintenance for as long as I can remember, SP is extremely reliable. Certainly more reliable than any other hosts I've used in the past. :heh:

    There is no such thing as hosts which will just waive copyright as irrelevant and take no responsibility for the sites they host. Doing that means opening yourself for prosecution over the content of the hosted sites. I certainly don't know of any hosts without a pretty long AUP and TOS stating a number of things you're not allowed to have on your site (copyrighted content being the obvious first).

    Of course sharing books online damages the author... the industry will survive regardless, but it's robbing the author. What you call eBooks aren't really eBooks... eBooks are legitimate digitally encoded books you have to pay for and can then download and read using a special reader. Not all books also come in digital format, but quite a lot of them do these days.

    Many people today don't buy books any more just because they can download them off the Internet. But this is illegal.
     
  5. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
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    Actually, there are -several of them, in fact. I have been reading ToSes here and there, and it seems like several Vietnamise, one in Hong Kong, and another one in China specifically state that "We take NO responsibility over the hosted site or their content, nor what is passed through the server." There is one in Finland too, but that server is just outragously expensive! (Saunalahti)

    SP would be my first choise, but since your ToS has that rule and prevents *me* from taking the responsibility of my own actions... Well, I'll rather answer to the prosecutions myself than put my host in the fry. Rather noble of me, isn't it? :p

    Notice though, that by this I mean verifying the claims and watching over my own rights -that is something hosts do not take account when they automatically close down the site even without checking what the law says about the matter, listening only this often foreign company. Who, quite likely, hasn't contacted the site owner either, in a proper manner that is a) sending a letter, b) in finnish, c) by finnish law, and d) specifying how their rights have been broken, based on the letter of the law.

    Let's take a hypothetical example, straight out from my imagination; Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise decide to write a book about "How we sold bottles of air and made millions!" and contact a publishing company.

    The publishing company agrees to print the work and deliver it to shops, but they demand a one-sided contract that a) means that the publishing company takes no responsibility over the book, b) they have the copyright to it for the next 80 years, and c) they pay royalties of 33% of all income. After all, it's the publishing company that does most of the work.

    What do you know: the book sells like rage all over the world and the authors royalties earn them big bucks. 33% of the big bucks, to be exact, the rest going to the publishing company. In this case, would you really rob the author and would he even notice missing a few bucks? Even after, say; 10 years after the first print?

    Maybe the book didn't sell that well and earned them only a few bucks. No one actually wanted to read it and thus Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise feel a bit sorry that no one got to enjoy of their work, especially since they had paid of the publishing. In this case, would they feel robbed if even fewer people downloaded the eBook instead of bying the paper-version of it?

    What about the cases when the publishing company refuses to make a contract and they have to print the book themselves, being able to deliver it to only a small area, even though knowing that the book has obvious quality that would please many readers? Alas, they have no money to share it with the wide public, so wouldn't P2P sharing actually help them?

    Then what are they? Warez? Are small quotes from famous books that too? What about copyrighted phrases, like "McDonalds: we are lovin' it!" Is that warez too? :hmm:

    [ June 19, 2005, 00:41: Message edited by: Wirhe ]
     
  6. Erod Gems: 14/31
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    About that hypothetical stuff...

    No matter what, it still is copyright infringement. Unless you have the proper permissions and stuff. Nothing will change this.
     
  7. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
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    This is a question about "law vs. morality" and we know what law says about this, thank-you-very-much. ;)
     
  8. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    There is no such thing as a trustworthy host which doesn't respect copyright. Small correction. If you're insane enough to get hosting somewhere in Asia, good luck... I wouldn't take such a gamble with my site, let alone my credit card.

    Actually, as a host I'm only obligated to notify you of any breaches of my server provider's AUP or TOS (which are common sense; respect copyright and you have nothing to worry about). If you don't remove copyrighted items, then I'm obligated to shut your site down. It's how pretty much every respectable host operates.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here with the books argument... downloadable books are warez, same way as downloadable games and music you don't pay for are (unless the author specifically releases it free for everyone). It's against the law, end of story. You can argue the case all you want, the law makes it crystal clear that you're not allowed to obtain or distribute copyrighted material without paying and/or permission. There's no such thing as free lunch.

    And if you think anyone's going to entertain your interpretation of where copyright applies, you're very much mistaken.
     
  9. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
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    Taluntain. Perhaps you didn't notice: I made no claims. I only asked questions and you made assumptions. Try to answer from the POV of morality and answer to those questions presented in that little "column" of mine; we are not trying to convince anyone else but me about this. Law is law, but I follow my moral first, so do not try to ignore it. ;)

    There are three things you assume wrong here:
    1) Asian service providers are as trustworthy as any -maybe even better than anything in US. For example, Xinnet has about 100.000 clients, so it is no small business.
    2) Hosting in Asia due of more lax copyright laws is wiser, since it means less complications to you.
    3) Who said anything about credit card? ;)
     
  10. Shrikant

    Shrikant Swords! Not words! Veteran

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    When is this thread being moved to AoDA? :heh:
     
  11. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Wirhe, why do you think I have any interest in convincing you in the morality of copyright? As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the basic principles of morality and consequently legality, but as you obviously don't agree, I see little point in wasting time trying to convince you. This isn't AoDA. And I'm not professing any purity of conscience here, I've done my share (and probably still am doing) of things that are technically illegal... but at least I'm not fooling myself to the contrary.

    1. Xinnet is a Chinese company, and as far as I know, they don't even have an English storefront. Can you read and write Chinese? Also, where did you get the information about their trustworthiness?
    2. Well, if you're intent on breaking the law, certainly...
    3. How else are you going to send money? Few hosting companies take PayPal, even if you have that option. Practically none take any other means of money transfer.
     
  12. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
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    Now, now; don't just give up. I'm still interested to hear what you have to say about the other side of the issue, which you have been dodging all this time. Law and moral are two different things, you should know that; law is logical and this logic can sometimes lead to silly results that war against moral, whereas moral is more about intuition that isn't always as easy to map.

    1) No, I can't read or write chinese, but one from their end can read and write english. Recommendation.
    2) You are not breaking any law if there isn't one. I see nothing bad in hosting stuff in more allowing country -you do not always need to go by the rules of the strictest one.
    3) Some of them accept international money transfers. Basically I only need to visit my bank, give them the numbers and references, and it's done. INMT fee 8 €. But this is beside the point anyway.

    Go ahead and move this to AoDa, if that is what is needed to keep the discussion going on. ;)
     
  13. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    You can open a separate topic there if you want, but this one is staying here.

    Btw, post which Asian host you end up with, I'd be curious to know.
     
  14. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
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    Er... why? I'd rather not share my hosts name around when people might attach that name to something they do not like. Except, of course, if you want to move on that server too. :grin:

    [ June 15, 2005, 21:15: Message edited by: Wirhe ]
     
  15. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    Depends on the law. The Finnish law makes it crystal clear that you're allowed to obtain copyrighted material/download it/copy it for private use. The only thing that is really illegal is distributing the stuff which is of course what this thread is about. Anyway just stopped by to remind that the form of copyright laws vary from country to country and things which are crystal clear somewhere might not be that crystal clear somewhere else. ;)

    EDIT: Anyway I would not trust a company which does not care about copyright laws. That quite simply means that they don't care about law period and are quite ready to rip you off if they get the smallest chance to do so.
     
  16. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Just PM me, Wirhe, then you won't have to worry about anyone else knowing. Considering the bold statements you made about Asian hosts and their reliability and suitability for Western customers, I expect you to come up with one credible name, at least.

    Morgoroth, the Finnish law allows people to download warezed games, movies, music, etc? Pretty weird concept of law you have in Finland, when copyright isn't respected... But anyway, I was speaking mostly for the US where the position is clear, and UK. Other European countries may have different laws, though I find it really hard to believe that any country would allow people to legally download warez.
     
  17. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
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    Might be true, but what I'm specifically looking for is...

    Which is something I cannot accept. If they send me a letter that is in finnish, based on finnish law, and specifying how their rights have been violated, then I could believe they have made a point. Otherwise it just makes you feel like you have been stepped on by the service provider. Who might even steal you money this way day after the deal was made.

    @ Taluntain

    If you want to know, check out my website regularly -I'll post the results there, in the news section. Oh, and while you are at it; take a look at the stories section too. You might find a few good books to read. :D

    [ June 15, 2005, 22:43: Message edited by: Wirhe ]
     
  18. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    Copyright is respected in its own way. You are allowed to copy whatever you want as much as you want as long as it's for private use. I see nothing wrong in that and I don't see anyone getting hurt by doing that. Incidently that law also allows you to download stuff from the internet for private use. Distributing warez on the other hand is illegal, so whenever you download warez stuff from the internet someone is breaking the law (therefore respecting the copyrights) but it just ain't the one downloading the stuff. There has been a lot of talk about changing the law though and it probably will be changed in the future to be more similar to the copyright laws in most of Europe. Personally I don't do warez and I don't support warez since I consider it to be theft and I would like the law change even if it would change anything. The individuals who download warez will continue to that no matter what the law says.

    They don't really have to do that. They can send the letter directly to the police who will confiscate your computer and the courts will punish you accordingly, they really would not have to go through you. It's unlikely that you would get caught though unless your site grows so big that it will get serious attention. ;)

    Are you desperate for visitors or what? :lol:
     
  19. Wordplay Gems: 29/31
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    Hello, my site is SMALL; not some ûber-big warez portal or anything like that famous 'The Pirate Bay' of Sweden. I just want to have a few eBooks I know people will enjoy reading, and I just want to expand a little to have space and forums. There are about 20 regulars and about 1200 hits every month, most of them not even being interested of reading. No biggie. ;)

    Not if it is a foreign company, most likely from US. Of course, the blue coats would still come to visit, but confiscating my computer would be too harsh considering the level of crime. Also, as a new, promising criminal, I would be let go since it would be my first crime. This is, at least, what my prof of juridistics led me to understand. :D

    [ June 19, 2005, 00:45: Message edited by: Wirhe ]
     
  20. Erod Gems: 14/31
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    To add something to what Morgoroth said.

    Yes, currently it is legal to download some piece of work for private use. You can also make a few copies for private use. But this does NOT include any software that isn't freely distributable. So for example downloading the newest games is illegal. But, making a backup (or several if necessary) of software is allowed, no matter what EULAs may say. Uploading any copyrighted stuff is of course illegal (as you have to do with many P2P networks).

    This law will probably soon change, so that it'll be illegal to download, even for private use (if the source from what you're copying is illegal).

    [ June 16, 2005, 17:41: Message edited by: Erod ]
     
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