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Refugees

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by dmc, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    This isn't a novel concept, really. Germany's sending full airplanes of unwanted illegals back routinely now. I'm sure it's costly, but certainly much less so than 80% of them and their families living off welfare for life there, which is a statistic I've read mentioned somewhere. It's ironic that you're talking about not using force, but brute force through unmanageable numbers is exactly what the migrants are exploiting to cross and settle in Europe illegally. If this was a problem that only affected Germany and Sweden I wouldn't really care, but millions of people who don't recognize and live by any European standards and values is more than enough to destabilize Europe as a whole in the end. The "small numbers" of Muslims in Europe even before this crisis were already enough to effectively kill freedom of speech when it comes to any kind of depictions of Muhammad.

    Expecting things to improve based on past track record with the influx of millions more followers of Muhammad is hopelessly naive at best and downright stupid at worst. Unfortunately, for some countries this realization is likely to come only after it'll already be too late.
     
  2. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    So everyone from outside of Europe are all the same? This is an organised, orchestrated migration?

    As for flying back yes it is costly but that isn't the problem. The problem is if the person refuse to move and have to be carried or drugged before take off. The problem is if they refuse to leave the plane, the problem is to figure out where to send them, to get those countries to receive them, to find someone to talk to. It not like deporting a Slovenian citizen breaking the law in Sweden to Slovenia where the authorities can work together. If the place of origin has a state they don't want these people back and when we are talking Somalia or IS controlled regions there is no state or authories to speak to.

    What I hope is that people will stop panicking, will stop generalising and take a step back and think. This is what I actually think "main stream" media is doing, this is what I think those who are labelled as "political correct" do. I have probably a better knowledge of the drawbacks of muslim people than most and an awareness of all the negative aspects of that religion and culture (note Christian people from that region are just as conservative as the Muslims). That is why I don't think there is a simple solution, anyone looking for a simple solution to a complicated problem is going to have a bad time. Anyone viewing people as devouring masses will quickly lose track of what makes our culture special and what they are trying to protect in the first place. And finally, doomsday prophets tend to be wrong.
     
  3. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I think my basic issue with what you are saying, joacqin, is that you are treating the presence of what amounts to a horde of illegal immigrants as a fact of life and something that you need to process from that point.

    To me, accepting that means that you are basically saying you have no borders and anyone who gets to your country also gets to stay there.

    Maybe it's part of the American culture I grew up with, but I think borders need to be observed and I think a country has to right to basically say, "get the hell out" to anyone who wants to come in and squat.

    It's sort of funny in that my own country is struggling with this from the concept of illegal aliens entering through Mexico, and you can see that it's not a simple thing because all the politicians like to talk tough but most don't want to really do anything about it because of the cheap labor factor involved. However, I suspect that if the "cheap labor" wasn't all that into the "labor" part of the title and was essentially a complete drain on resources, both sides of our political debate would be in agreement on tightening the border. But I digress . . . .

    To me, if you demonstrate, as a country, the will to ship out each and every person that comes in from IS or wherever, those people will focus on a different destination. If the EU, as a whole, demonstrated this resolved, then they would aim elsewhere. I might certainly be wrong in this, but when someone says, "if you can get here, we're gonna let you stay," that pretty much undermines everyone else's borders along the way. I also do not feel the need to succor the world's poor, as we have enough of our own poor to succor here.
     
  4. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    "To me, accepting that means that you are basically saying you have no borders and anyone who gets to your country also gets to stay there."

    I know we're talking migration into Europe here, but that's actually becoming a real talking point of the American left, if you haven't heard it yet. "Living without borders" is now a thing to be admired. Gee, I wonder how that would work out. :rolleyes:

    I admire your humanity, but I simply don't think our moral responsibilities extend so far that we are personally obligated to take care of any and every person down on their luck. It's not a matter of religion or cultural differences to me; I merely believe a nation is obligated to it's own citizens welfare first and to sacrifice that for the citizens of another country is to do a disservice to who you are supposed to be serving in office. It's not a policy that does that society any good if Tal's numbers are even in the ballpark. Should the poor of your country suffer more to help the poor of another? In my experience in the American south that's pretty much how it goes, as sad as it is to say.
     
  5. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Absoulutely. Isn´t that already in the works by the EU?
    america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/5/11/bold-eu-proposal-seeks-un-approval-for-military-action-against-traffickers.html

    The first already died, this time at the bulgarian border:
    http://www.novinite.com/articles/171346/Afghan+Migrant+Shot+Dead+in+Bulgaria+near+Border+with+Turkey
    Not an aimed shot to kill yet mind you, but warning shots gone astray.

    And that is not true. There is not only the choice of *letting them go whereever they want* or *they die*.
    If someone refuses to stay in Italy or go to Spain if he asks for Asyl at the EU-border then he obviously doesn´t need Asyl but only a better place to live that noone is required to provide him.

    Franco? Serbian massacres in Sarajevo etc.? Invasion of Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion
    Women´s suffrage in Switzerland only in 1971 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage#Switzerland

    And we don´t need to. We neither need to completely close the border with a fence all around. But there is a need to make everyone adhere to valid laws.

    If that would be true then the "refugees" would not try to get to the UK (leaving France risking death in the Eurotunnel), Sweden or Germany but would be willing to spread out to any country of Europe where they are not in danger of being killed and to have a chance to live. They don´t and concentrate on those countries where they expecet the hightest benefits.

    Qualified people usually know where they are welcome. Even german doctors leave for Switzerland for better pay ;-)
    And if really qualified people are coming we should not deprive their homecountries of their talents and urge them to change something for their country and their nation. And the majority of unskilled, untrained and illiterate (in the latin alphabet) people too.

    Starting with a more restrictive asyl law in Germany, not handing out cash to refugees in Germany any more but only goods as needed, a fence in Hungary and a lot of other actions that are currently in the news.
     
  6. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    First off, and this is important. A lot of people in this thread and elsewhere say they have no problem protecting and helping refugees. Then someone said not all are refugees from war some are just economic migrants. All of a sudden everyone trying to get into Europe are now illegal immigrants everyone from the Syrian family with children, the young Afghan man sent out by his family to try to find a way to improve the situation for the family, the homosexual Iraqi man who wants to have some sweet man love without being executed, the Moroccan street urchin dazzled by dreams about the paradise that is the rich world, the political dissident from Iran and the Romani beggar from Romania. There are international laws and treaties who decide who is a refugee and entitled to asylum but it's pretty hard to figure out who is who but there isn't one group, they aren't all illegal and those that are illegal is doing everything they can pass off as legal. We have quite a lot of "solitary children" in our school who are protected by the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, what this means is young men from eastern Africa or Afganistan. By my estimation they are between 16 and 35 years of age now it bugs the hell out of me that I am forced to teach 30 year old men alongside 16 year old children but apparently there is no sure way to gauge someone's age so the powers that be has decided that it is better to let the liars in than to risk excluding a child and while I am not sure I completely agree (I mean so be it if a 19 year old tries to pass off as a 16 year old but some of these dudes are older than me) I can understand the reasoning.

    I repeat myself, this is no simple situation, there are no simple solutions unless you go with "kill em all and let god sort them out".

    Also, a world without borders would be a grand thing. These petty lines on our maps causes untold amount of grief.
     
  7. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Like that
    http://taz.de/!5244420/

    Any state uses force to have it´s laws applied even if it´s only taking away one´s car for parking in front of a firehydrant.
     
  8. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    Yes, yes there is and that is really my question. How do we make people adhere to our laws? It is not like the people within our borders adhere to our laws and then expecting people who view admittance as a matter of life and death to do it is quite optimistic. Not many people are saying we should ignore laws or agreements, it is pretty obvious. How do we make people adhere to the laws? How do we know does and who doesn't?

    Towing one car is doable, what would happen if every car in the city was parked in a way that it should be towed? I repeat, anyone trying to find simple solutions to complicated problems is going to have a bad time.

    This whole mess started cause the US decided Saddam was a menace, then the world in unison decided that all those nasty dictators in the Arab world shouldn't be supported anymore and then BAM! Here we are. Someone tried to use a simple solution to a complicated situation and everything just got worse.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2015
  9. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Soothsayers of course! if you ask in such a way ;-)

    Making people adhere to the law is something done since antiquity because crimes existed already in biblical times.
    That´s the reason police, judges and the like exist.

    An unlikely merely hypothetical question that would not only need someone lazy enough to park in the wrong place but a lot of people with malicient intent working together.

    In that case my solution would be to have a tank batallion run over the parked cars until fire cars or ambulances can again pass through to do their job. And then to have the people parking wrong pay for pulling the husks of their cars to the scrapyard.

    Most solutions are simple once employed. Columbus egg for example.
    There may be not 1 solution - but there are a lot of possible ways to influence people from fences to less money to wooeing Turkey to keep most of them there.

    The most simple solution is to let 1 dictator in every country instead of having anomie that causes refugeewaves.
    Saddam, Ghadaffi, Assad might be bad but the current situation is worse in all their states and sadly only Russia actually voiced that when it came to the decision what to do with Assad and who to support in the Syrian civil war.

    Correct - IF they actually are refugees that run from being killed in a state not able to protect them.

    And that´s quite true. Just look at e.g. the "west balkan route" they currently use and that ends for most in Germany/Sweden/UK while passing through or near several other countries in which noone activley hunts them down to kill them. While lots of them actively refuse to being registered once they enter the EU to get to the "country of their choice" as if the EU was a box of chocolates.
    Oh no, not *everyone*. But I do believe that at least a few of them are actually members of the IS or Al-Kaida who can´t believe that they actually had to work hard before to get to other countries.

    That´s why the procedures can take several months once in Germany until a decision is made if the person can stay or has to leave again.

    I can´t. Sure even shops selling alcohol have signs apologizing for asking for ID cards "because noone can guess your age" but there are several methods to at least narrow down the age of a person to a few years, e.g. by using bone thickness or
    http://www.popsci.com/science/artic...-determine-persons-age-blood-left-crime-scene


    That only works for catholics
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Béziers
    and again - there is not only the choice of having chaos reign or killing them all.
    If all they do would be fleeing death then the vast majority wouldn´t want to come to SWE/UK/GER but be content to be safe in any country of the EU.

    Sure - free passage for drugs and underage slaveprostitutes that currently are still at least somehow limited and everyone gathering where the most can be had. Next 1 billion chinese will come because they may now be allowed to have TWO children instead of 1 in China but more here...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2015
  10. pplr Gems: 18/31
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    Well this explains a few of your comments in other threads. :p

    Anyway, I'll point out that W. pushed to oust Saddam but with Ghadaffi & Assad both are situations where internal revolutions and a following civil war started without an invasion by foreigners (to that nation).

    Also dictators have made war on each other for the bulk of human history. So pardon my skepticism if looking to them to bring peace.

    Or a state trying to kill them..



    Probably.. this is concerning to at least some governmental organizations.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  11. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I have been following this crisis closely. Based on the various reports from different parts of the world the backlash has begun. Protests in Italy and Sweden, France, Britain and even Canada. Anti imigration parties are rising in popularity according to these reports. According to the reports crime especially rape is rising quite a bbit and is linked to the immigration.

    When does tolerance and Political Correctness become cowerdice? Whether you have just recently arrived in a country or your ancestory goes back many generations you should be subject to the laws of that country and the penalities of breaking those laws.
    In Religion 101 I learned that it is morally acceptable to break an unjust law but you must be willing to suffer the consequences. Freedom is not given to us we earn it.

    Considering the number of people involved it is unlikely that the migrants can just simply be sent back. That has been done in small numbers here in the USA and we have been criticized for it.
    I refer to migrants from Central America claiming asylum because they fear for their lives.
     
  12. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    What makes you believe the laws don't apply to immigrants?
     
  13. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Perhaps I should specify that I meant to better have 1 dictator instead of anomie in the unstable countries like Lybia, Iraq or Syria and not everywhere. Democracies of course outsource it´s dictatorial abuses to Guantanamo.

    Ghadaffi lost and was killed because western intervention tied his hands and he could no longer suppress the rebels using the full abilities of his armed forces
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya
    Most of that because the rebels were glorified as liberators from his oppression and fighters for democracy - didn´t prove correct after Ghadaffi was gone. And now Lybia is a failed state unable to control it´s own borders and on the brink of breaking into 3 or more parts. That´s one of the reasons that more migrants come across the mediterrenean as Ghadaffi had an agreement with the EU to to stop large masses of migrants to throw themselves into the sea to get to the EU
    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-10-472_en.htm

    And in Assads case the US for example were so eager to dismiss him as a dictator that they supported his opponents (liberators and fighters for democracy again), weakening his grip on Syria enough that the IS and Al-Kaida could rise to challenge him too
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War

    Well, considering that the US actively supported Saddam (back then the staunch defender of a secular state against the islamistic extremists in Iran) as long as he waged war on Iran it seems that it´s not only the dictators that start, continue or fuel wars.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  14. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    And Germany. It´s schizophrenic - a vocal minority of the population dismisses anything to limit the influx of the poor refugees while another minority has started to burn down buildings that have been alloted to home migrants before they even arrive there. And the majority can´t undestand the extreme ignorance for valid laws of the one side and doesn´t dare to voice support for some of the other sides views in fear of being dissed as rightwing nazis.

    It´s not cowardice, it´s political calculations. Especially in Germany there is an outcry of a very vocal part of the population when any politican even remotely hints at limiting the number of migrants taking in or making it easier to send them right back before they even enter the country - and few politicans dare to take the risk to say a wrong word that echoes back to them in the news in view of the next election.

    Most countries do that and Germany even published the exact numbers, e.g. 2014:
    in german as released by the Bundestag/Parliament:
    http://www.proasyl.de/fileadmin/pro...emen/Zahlen_und_Fakten/Abschiebungen_2014.pdf
    a more general article in english
    http://zeit.de/feature/refugees-in-germany-deportation-flights-laws

    Have you heard of the US citizen that applied for asylum in Canada fearing for his live? ^^
    in german:
    http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/w...rger-beantragt-asyl-in-kanada_id_5050826.html
    in english:
    http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/article/black_u.s._citizen_seeking_refugee_status_in_canada/
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
  15. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    @ConjurerDragon please post sources in English, most people here don't know German at all, or not well enough to read detailed articles in German...
     
  16. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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  17. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I don't know the quality of the source, but it looks like the Swedes are starting to get a little cranky. http://prntly.com/blog/2015/10/07/sweden-burns-1000s-of-migrants-torch-capital/

    It is supposed to be the model multicultural state. But Sweden is facing problems of its own after gangs of immigrants spent a fifth consecutive night rioting in Stockholm.

    Officers are battling to keep the capital under control after hundreds of cars were torched, a police station set alight and fire services kept from a major blaze by a stone-throwing mob of youths.

    To make matters worse, rioting has now spread to Sweden’s two other major cities, Gothenburg and Malmo.
    The disturbances, which have lasted longer than the riots in England in the summer of 2011, started last week after police shot dead a foreign-born pensioner who threatened to attack them with a machete.
    Left-wing activists came forward to accuse police of racism – a charge strongly denied by the Stockholm force.

    Growing unrest turned to violence last Sunday in a north-western suburb called Husby – where more than 80 per cent of the residents are from overseas, mostly Turkey, Somalia and the Middle East.

    Trouble then spread to some of the city’s most deprived areas, shattering the country’s proud claim that it is a template for a successful and ethnically diverse society.
    On Thursday night there were 90 separate blazes in the capital. Thirty cars were torched and there were eight arrests – mostly of people in their early 20s.

    In earlier attacks, groups of up to 100 rioters targeted schools, nurseries and shops – breaking windows and setting buildings ablaze.

    In Skogas, south of Stockholm, emergency services were kept from a fire in a restaurant when a gang of youths pelted fire engines with rocks.

    And in nearby Ragsved a violent mob set fire to a police station – the second to come under attack in two days.
    Lars Bystrom, a Stockholm police spokesman, said: ‘Such fires are mainly lit to lure the police to the scene, who are then attacked.’

    He admitted officers have been forced to change their tactics, saying: ‘Now if there is a small fire that is not likely to spread, and there is no risk to life, we will send out a patrol and keep an eye on it from a distance.

    ‘But we are not going to bring in the fire brigade unless it’s really dangerous.’

    The attacks on emergency service workers have led to private security companies telling employees to stay at home, as mobs have started attacking anyone wearing a uniform.


    Several public transport routes have also been cancelled after rioters started hurling petrol bombs at buses.
    The Foreign Office and the US embassy have warned visitors to stay away from certain suburbs.

    Government leaders have been stunned by the ferocity of the violence in a country which has long been touted as a paragon of social justice.

    For decades, supporters of multiculturalism have pointed to Sweden as a classic example of a society which allows immigrants to continue practising their own culture while living peacefully alongside their host communities.

    Around 15 per cent of Sweden’s 9.5million inhabitants were born outside the country.

    The second largest group of immigrants, after the Finns, are Iraqis – numbering more than 125,000. Former Yugoslavs total over 160,000 and Iranians almost 65,000.
     
  18. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    Heh, I live in Sweden and wasn't even aware of any riots. There were some a year or so back but it has been reasonably calm lately. OR, or all the media is covering it up to protect the islamofascistoid conspiracy!

    The top news here right now is how the authorities are evicting Romani squatters with force.
     
  19. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I am going tomake a really sarcastic reply to the above post. Admins and Moderators feel free to delete if you wish.

    It is alright to evict Romani. We all know that they are degenrates and deserve no care or concern on our part. Nasty sheep stealing bastards but if we protest someone who rapes woman simply for refusing to wear some ridiculous garb or kills Jews in the name of their god then we are racists and nazis. I have read several reports that that has happened here. Police and law officials were afraid to proceed because of the left wing extremists carrying on about the rights of these Islamic extremists. They can kill, rape, destroy property but that is all in the name of Allah so that makes it okay.

    This is why I say tolerance and Political Correctness can become cowardice.
     
  20. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    Who is protecting rapists and murderers and where is this happening?
     
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