1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Refugees

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by dmc, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,105
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    307
    Gender:
    Male
    As Tal mentioned, I also blame the media for these fiascoes. Calling them refugees and focusing on the human interest stories they find with women and children is not really reporting, it is censoring. The only news organization here in the US that reports on these types of things is Fox News. This means that large portions of the country who have been taught to dismiss Fox as Faux News never see or here most of these things. A recent example is during the Democratic debate. When Bernie Sanders said "We are all tired about hearing about your damn emails" there was a huge spike in Google as people who had never heard about them or the scandal associated with them looked them up for the first time. Anyone who watches Fox has known about them for months if not years.
     
  2. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    381
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    26
    Gender:
    Male
    In general they are free to state that they want Sharia law. That´s covered by the freedom of speech and freedom of religion as the Sharia is the religious law of islamic states.
    That´s like a catholic saying that the word of the Pope is more important to him than the laws of his country, a quaker refusing to serve in the army because god forbids him to murder humans or a monarchist wanting a king of Germany.

    The question is how they intend to take over. And if their plan is simply to peacefully take over by voting for it once they have a majority of eligible voters there´s nothing a democracy could do to prevent that.

    There is a recent fine example for that in the german news
    http://www.swr.de/landesschau-aktue...=1622/did=16349046/nid=1622/2fer7o/index.html

    In short: A major of a german town is interviewed. Among a lot of other things (e.g. citys and communitys resources are strained trying to receive that many refugees and they should be distributed more evenly and to other states too) he states that he sees the need to help Greece to actually control it´s border, that greece won´t manage that alone and after being asked that the necessary personnel likely would be from the EU (Frontex) andl likeley be armed as that´s usual for border patrols in most countries.
    Interesting is that this politician is a member of the german green party who started as pacifists and are more left than the socialdemocrats (SPD) - and the news made him appear as if he DEMANDED armed borderguards and put him into the right corner as if he almost were a Nazi. :bang:

    If the news and the politicians continue to label everyone speaking out that there is a refugee crisis and there are problems actually finding enough housing for everyone then the REAL rightwing-parties (e.g. the german AfD) will only profit in the next election from the people in the middle who don´t find themselves represented any more by the parties they usually elect.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2015
  3. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,493
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    333
    Gender:
    Male
    Of course there is. You have no obligation to import a ton of people from other countries.
     
  4. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    381
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    26
    Gender:
    Male
    I know that. European law explicitely states that refugees have to register in the first state of the EU that they enter and stay there until they are told otherwise.
    Unfortunately the german chancellor decided to ignore that law in face of the thousands that simply ignored those laws because Italy and Greece were both no longer able to register and house everyone that came.
     
  5. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    I can't speak for other countries but in the USA they could not do that without first getting a constitutional admendment. Which is not easy to do. Even those states have given up some even many of their rights we are still a country with an evolved government and the states that 2/2 of the states would have to agree. Moments like this make me pround to be a citizen and resident of the USA. Maybe proud isn't the right word, grateful. Freedom of religion may be guaranteed by the Constitution but there are restrictions. The Mormons had to give up polygamy in order for Utah to become a state.
     
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,493
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    333
    Gender:
    Male
    My point is more meta than the paperwork. If you are being invaded by someone who intends to use your laws against you in a way that is presently legal but with the intent to change things and, basically take over so as to distort your country into a twisted mirror of the country the left, why do you have to let them in at all?
     
  7. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,105
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    307
    Gender:
    Male
    This is why way back in this thread I said Germany and I'm going to add Europe may be committing suicide. They are allowing people to legally become residents who have no interest in becoming a part of the local culture. Instead their stated goals are to turn where they are in to where they are from. It seems so simple. Become a majority, use the laws of the land to take over, change the laws to what you see fit. Using the US model of government eventually even the judicial branch would be replaced and then you are done. I repeat my prediction. In the possible near future there will be a second diaspora of white Europeans looking to escape to the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.
     
  8. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    `
    It seems there may be one European nation that agrees with you, dmc.
    http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...-slams-croatias-lack-of-refugee-controls.html
     
  9. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,037
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    460
    Gender:
    Male
    I should clarify that the intent here is to only have the army aid the police in border control, so nothing really drastic (yet).
     
  10. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    I think Slovenia could give some advice to the USA with our migrant problem. Seriously. People from Central America are dieing trying to get into the US not killed by law enforcement agents but just taking very risky avenues to get in.. Living in New Jersey I have no first hand knowledge of the problem but there definitely is one and the states affected and the Federal government don't seem to be very cooperative with each other. We have our problems too but IMO we are geographically large enough to hide some of them behind the rocks. I could be wrong of course. Maybe.

    PS: Did I spell your country's name correctly this time? I do try.
     
    Taluntain likes this.
  11. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,493
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    333
    Gender:
    Male
    Further to the video Nakia posted and Snook's point, are there any members closer to the action who feel that Nakia's video is inaccurate and that the portrayals of what is going on in various countries is not, actually, the case?

    I ask because I remember some of the dialogue and conversations we had a number of years ago relating to the death threats for cartoonists in, I believe Denmark, when they drew satirical pictures of Mohammed and I seem to remember that there was a decent amount of tolerance for the Muslims in the European countries despite what I felt was a grossly disproportionate reaction to something that Westerners take for granted.
     
    Nakia likes this.
  12. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,037
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    460
    Gender:
    Male
    I didn't see anything made up or inaccurate in there. Obviously the videos only present the worst kind of behaviour, but I see no reason whatsoever why it should be hidden from sight and/or the media and yet pretending that it didn't happen is something that the media all across Europe are constantly doing. Basically, political correctness has become such a holy cow in Europe over the last 15 years that stating any kind of negative facts about any non-native group of people (the Roma, Muslim immigrants, etc.) is viewed as completely forbidden. But some countries, like Sweden or the UK, go even further, basically excusing pretty much any kind of criminal behaviour by the Muslim immigrants with slaps on the wrist at best. Don't ask me where, when or how common sense was lost completely because I haven't a clue.
     
  13. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    381
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    26
    Gender:
    Male
    The ramblings about the danish cartoons showed how a lot of muslims in the world understand religious freedom (others have to follow what their religious laws say) but only after the Charlie Hebdo shootings is islamic violence seen as an immediate threat in the middle of europe.

    The amount of tolerance for muslims does still exist as long as those simply abide to the law. Problematic is that the feeling rises that a majority of muslims would not become violent themselves but understand, tolerate and even agree with what islamic terrorists do (e.g. sure it´s wrong to kill a dozen satire writers in France - but it was their own fault as they taunted the whole islamic world). It´s a lot like the Nazis started where a majority of the population did not share their violent beliefs but did nothing because they successfully solved several problems that other parties were seen as not able to. Muslim voices in Europe that criticize those terrorist actions are only few and sadly don´t represent the majority of them.
     
  14. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    I think the answer is a complex one. There is a theory that a secret organization exists that desires to topple national government and that they have placed members in key positions throughout the world . This possible but I think the key issue is the human brain. We are just now beginning to understand it. I have some done extensive research on the subject. We take in information through our senses and the brain processes it. The brain can misguide us due to various factors, culture, experience, damage and so forth. The brain can be manipulated and it takes a great deal of effort to protect ourselves from being misled. We want to believe that humans are good and mostly we are but we are also ego centric. We are the center of our universe. It has been liken to standing in the middle of a ocean. People all to often convince themselves that what they want to believe is the truth and the only truth.

    We want to believe the best of people and believe that others can be enlightened and brought to the realization that what we believe is the truth is the truth. Trouble is that each one of us has our truth. Looking at some of the pictures published by the Media I realized something. The media is showing women and children because of course women are kind, loving caring people by nature and childreen are just innocents. Nonsense, those women have been raised to believe the same things their men believe and those children are being raised to belie those same things. Those women are supporting their men and are themselves quite capable of being violent themselves. These radicals may be a minority but they are the active, vocal group and are quite capable of doing harm ot other Muslims who do not support them.

    A backlash against the terriosts is developing and I believe will only increase as more and more people realize the danger. Innocents will suffer on both sides. When someone attacks either physically or verbally my country and my people they attack me. (I am not referring to reasoned critics I am very critical myself). It would surprise me if others did not feel the same way and this extends to tohers we can identify with. It is very complicated and quite a hornet's nest situation.
     
  15. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    6,116
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    121
    So some people are trying to impose Islamic sharia laws and creating a Muslim utopia in some states and regions (Afganistan, Somalia the IS controlled parts of Syria and Iraq), droves of people are moving away from those regions but with the intention of creating islamic sharia governed states there? Is that what people are saying in this thread now? I listened to one of the mini-lectures Hans Rosling made (a man well worth listening to) and according to him around 4% of the European population is muslim now, if ALL of Syria would move to Europe it would be 5%. Going to take a while to overthrow our system.

    What I see in this thread and everywhere else is simple fear, fear and dehumanisation. "The faceless hordes will overrun us all", they aren't really faceless they are people. I work with these people and they come in all sorts. A few are hardcore islamic extremists but you know what? They are pegged quite quickly and watched. Quite a lot have values and morals that clash with in my instance Swedish values but guess what, so does a large part of the US and many of the people who most vehemently oppose immigrants. They are over representated in criminal statistics but they are also generally poorer, less educated and less hopeful than the majority population. Show me one time in history when poor, uneducated people were not over representated in criminal statistics.

    Hell, I feel the same thing in my gut as many of you are opposing but you know what, that is my gut speaking. That is the ingrained, genetic wariness of the "other". My mind is trying to look at the situation rationally. If I was in charge of the world Sweden would be able to keep our homogenic little slice of heaven to ourselves but I am not and I wouldn't be able to kill to do it. Cause that is what you are arguing whether you want to admit it or not. The people are already on the move, how do you argue we stop them? Barbed wire and machineguns? Sinking their boats? Tell me, how do you plan on stopping them? If you take the moral stance and say that you are willing to kill them to keep them out I can respect that, I wouldn't agree with you but I would respect it because that is what it would take. Either you kill them actively or you let them slowly starve or freeze to death. If we want to stick to the humane values that has dominated the west since WW2 we have no choice but to help as best we can cause I don't think we would be willing to kill them. If we want to abandon those values so be it but then we better start getting rid of all the people we deem useless or not fitting in to our society. The absolute best would of course be if there were no "push factor", people do not leave everything behind and risk their lives for a lark. They do it because even living off our scraps is better than their homes. It would be grand if "they" could sort out their problems themselves like "we" did and yes it would, should we stand by in our giant gated communities and watch while it happens. What if they create societies that don't mix with ours, should we war? What about every talented, educated person leaving those places in droves, not only those places but anyone who can leave Greece or Romania, anyone with any skilll that is valuable elsewhere is leaving what will that do to those places ability to create something? Should we lock the door to the Indian engineers or Romanian doctors also?

    I could tell you stories about the sixteen year old girl with a four year old son stuck in a Sudanese refugee camp that was conceived when she was raped in that camp and she had to leave the child with relatives. Relatives who are now blackmailing her to continue to take care of her son but I don't like these stories. I hate how people get all misty eyed and caring when one of the faceless horde gets a face, a name and a story. They all have faces, names and stories.

    All of you crying about how we need to stop them, how?
     
  16. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    joacqin, when I first posted in the thread my opinion was much as yours is. You have stated it much better than I did. However after much research I think the problem is much more complicated. Fear is used to control people. Fear is used to influence peoples beliefs. The brave person is not the one who is not afraid but the one who can put that fear aside and do what he or she believes is right. I do not think we know the truth. I have questions but have no answers. You ask if I would be willing to kill and my answer is yes I would if I feared that someone would harm me or those I care about. Fear is an instinctive protective reaction of humans and animals. The need to defend oneself. Fear can also be silence, the fear that if we speak out we will suffer in some way. Fear can make us kill or it can make us turn a blind eye to those being killed by others.
     
  17. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    6,116
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    121
    Please read my post and respond to what I actually wrote.
     
  18. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    I read your post carefully and responded with what came to my mind. I was unaware that this was a debate but thought it was an exchange of opinions and observations. \\I am trying to learn and want to know what Europeans who are faced with this on a daily basis think. Any Europeans. Because of the large number of people involved this has gotten a lot of attention.
     
  19. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,037
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    460
    Gender:
    Male
    You can't stop them joa, but you can transport them back where they came from. No country is under any obligation to take in whoever wants to get in illegally. The only obvious outcome of such a policy would be complete anarchy and a never-ending influx of illegal migrants from poor(er) parts of the world into the richer, which is not sustainable in any way.
     
    Nakia likes this.
  20. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    6,116
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    121
    How do you transport them back? Getting one unwilling person who fears for his life transported back is a massive and extremely complicated undertaking (one my mother works with). How do we get a 100 unwilling people transported? A 1000? Hundreds of thousands? Any solution that keeps them out and in their original locations involves methods usually only seen in dystopian science fiction or zombie films or the event which shouldn't be referred to in internet discussions. Do we want to start using force with these people? What would that accomplish? What would it do to us and our societies?

    You are right that it isn't sustainable for all of them to come here but right now we aren't living in a sustainable world. There are lots of things that needs to be changed. It isn't sustainable that a small small group owns almost all the capital in the world, the gaps that exist are not sustainable because as long as they are as wide as they are people will want to cross them. The only sustainable way to keep people put is to improve their conditions which is easier said than done but still a lot more realistic in the long run than trying to turn Europe into a hermetically sealed fortress. The Americans have to some extent tried that and they have really managed to keep the Latin Americans out...

    As long as we are looking for easy, quick, emotional solutions we are bound to fail and sometimes, sometimes when you are in a shitty situation there isn't much more to do than to accept it and make do as best as you can as all the simple solutions would only serve to make the situation worse.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.