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Refugees

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by dmc, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Then they should stay there, take up arms and fight to make their own country a better place.
    What would have happened if George Washington fled to the Bahamas instead of taking up arms against english oppression or Abraham Lincoln went to exile in Switzerland instead of fighting in his own country against his own people in a civil war?

    Between shooting them or being forced to help there are a lot of options. One is to be honest with them and tell them according to european law, e.g. You can´t stay in Germany because your life wasn´t in danger anymore already in Austria - so go back there. Asyl means offering a refuge for people in danger of being killed and not taking in anyone without a decent life who passes several countries in which he could have found a job to feed him.

    While yours are naive - sure there are people starving to death in the world. But the "refugees" currently arriving in Europe are not the walking dead unable to walk from hunger, nor are they being hunted by death squadrons from Syria after they have left that country.

    Are you? You currently question the right of free speech and an own opinion for those who posted before you because they clash with your view and describe them as "revolting".

    Actually - no, they expect a rich, to them foreign country to take care of them.

    If people with valid papers would ask to be let into the US or Europe it wouldn´t be an invasion. However then most of them would´t be allowed in because they have no legal right to expect to be allowed to live e.g. in Germany because they are poor. In that case they would have at least to pass something like "Ellis Island" to be checked for diseases that are already gone in civilised countries (which is done in Germany currently too, but where the institutes "Gesundheitsämter" are nearly exhausted in their capabilities https://www.bsw.de/oeffentlicher-dienst/aktuelle-berichte/gesundheitsamt-im-dauereinsatz.htm )
    , to be examined if they are not IS terrorists in disguise or simply war criminals who are fed up with killing - and if the receiving country could actually use them (hint: unlearned analphabets usually are not on the list but a syrian doctor or engineer would have a good chance).

    Another example: When I would want to visit my relatives in the US I would need a valid passport with biometric data including my finger prints (something that a while ago was taken only from criminals and that I still see as an insult to innocent travellers). That´s what the US requires since 9/11 even from people visiting from allied, friendly countries.


    However currently there are several thousands without valid papers who simply pass peaceful countries where they would not be in danger for their lives and ignore the laws of those countries by not registering there as refugees and moving on to greener pastures.

    There are poor people around the globe. It is neiter the USA´s nor Europes duty or even responsibility to keep order in their countries. After all those are not colonies anymore and they wanted to be independant - so they are responsible for their own countries since then.

    And noone has the resources to give eveyone a decent life - even rich countries have poor people in their own countries that they already are not capable of taking care of without foreign refugees.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2015
    Taluntain likes this.
  2. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    I think this is where we differ, I see humanity as humanity. I generally don't care for any part of humanity be it my neighbour or a stranger in Sudan but I care equally little about everyone. I see an unjust world where some of us simply by accident of birth have everything while others have nothing. This wave of people is part of this, they wouldn't need to leave if the situation was decent where they were born. Does it matter whose fault it is that the place they were born is now a hell hole? If aliens come and blitz your home, killing half the people you know making it impossible for you to have a decent life and then you see that another country was ignored by the aliens wouldn't you want to move there and try to make a life?

    You may think of me as naive but I rather see it as pragmatic, we can choose to continue to think of the world and humanity in terms of "us and them" like we have done for most of our history with results known to all or we can start thinking of everyone as us. How can we take care of each other? If we don't we will continue with the cycle of war and suffering, the flow of migrants and refugees will turn into an invasion.

    But, I am going to stop now, you don't break millenia of tribal thinking in an internet post. :)
     
    Nakia likes this.
  3. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I do not think joacqin is the naive one.
     
  4. Darion

    Darion Resident Dissident Veteran BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    'Tis a can of worms, but Tal said it the best.
    There are refugees and people displaced by wester intervention (none can deny that), who need a new home. But there are a great many more 'economic tourists' using the plight of those people to attach themselves to them and try to exploit the states that try to help.

    Imagine the swathes of 'Syrian refugees' that don't speak one word Arabic. Not to mention the third world nations encouraging their young males to leave for the 'richer' Countries. Just so they don't have to deal with them and the unemployment that follows them at home.
     
  5. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    The only way to stem the tide is to take away the incentive. The "social welfare" state that the left has been creating for 40 years is what is making this possible. Just look at the disaster in Calais, everyone wants to get to the UK. Not for the opportunity, but for the benefits. The same is true for Germany. Hungary on the other hand is doing everything it can to keep them out, but in all probability they wouldn't want to go there anyway.

    A nation, its citizens, and its culture has the right to preserve itself. If you feel bad for the plight of others, then feel free to take out your own checkbook and use your own money how you see fit. Anyone who thinks that middle eastern/African culture is a good fit for a Judea/Christian society is naïve at best.

     
  6. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    Heh, Judea/Christian culture is a Middle Eastern culture and devout Christians, Jews and Muslims have a lot more in common with each other than with secular westerners. The main problem is that some people in the Middle East are too conservative, IS are fighting for pretty much the same kind of society the properly religious Jews and Christians do.

    I also find it funny that when a black man committs a crime it is due to his culture/race/religion/whatever but when a white man does the same it is a rotten apple or a mental illness. What is even more funny is how you seem to think Hungary is doing it right but I guess it is turning into right-wing paradise with its control of free speech and consolidating of power in the hands of one party. I know the Swedish fascists love it so why wouldn't you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2015
  7. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Let's not throw any (implied) fascist or other meaningless, emotionally loaded labels around, please.
     
  8. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    It is my understanding that International Law requires States to accept migrants that claim to be in fear of their lives if they stayed in their home country. I do not know what the process is or how facts are determined but if that is the law then we should start working within it.

    What ever our personal feelings or bias is we need to step back and accept that we have a problem and there are tose on both the Left and Right who have failed to rationally and objectively address the problem.

    The Middle East is a war torn area Syria is just the most obvious and controversial at this time. Being emotional about the problem is not going to solve it. This is a time for objectivity for calmness and working together.
     
  9. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I guess it is asking to much for the Middle East to take care of their own. Nobody seems to care that other Muslim countries aren't opening their borders and accepting refugees. Somehow it is the west's problem.
     
  10. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    While some of the problems are centuries old and arise from clan and religious conflicts we the west Europe and the USA did contribute significantly to the problem. Colonization, the rather inept handing of Israeli over to the Jewish refugees are our fault and we do bare responsibility.

    Europe had its period of religious conflict. The Islam believers are about 500 years behind us. Maybe more I haven't checked the date of the founding of Islamism.
     
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    Source: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/15/makes-sad-says-open-borders-activist-brutally-stabbed-migrant-gang/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2015
  12. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    The west can't take on every person who is dissatisfied with life in their home country. It's not like they didn't have to fight to better their own societies. Others should do the same, and if you want to help do so, but there's only so far you can go by opening your borders to whoever because it's the nice thing to do.

    [​IMG]
     
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    Refugees marching through Slovenia. I want to know if Tal is the cameraman. Get Ready Germany, they are all heading your way.

     
  14. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I am doing some rethinking of my opinions on the subject of this thread. Browising various videos turned up by Snook's video I came across the scariest video I have ever seen. I am not linking to it because undr the laws of many Western Countries it could be considered contributing to hate crimes although it purports to only be reporting what is happening with clips from various videos showing some rather graphic and extremely unpleasant acts.

    I apologize to those Europeans who are afraid if this video is even half factual you and I have ever right to be afraid. Terroism comes in many forms. The video is an hour long. I will give the name of the video below and if the staff feel that even that is inappropriate or dangerous please delete it.

    One Hour Compilation of how Islam is Ruining Europe and America



    I feel nauseous.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
  15. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    The situation here is getting out of hand very quickly, as was to be expected. Croatians want to get all the migrants out of their country ASAP, so they're herding them across our border in dozens of places, instructing them to illegally cross wherever they feel like it, driving them in hundreds of buses close to the border, then turning off all the lights on the buses so that they get close undetected and then let hundreds of them out in the middle of the night in the dark.

    Today the migrants also burned down our biggest refugee camp, because they weren't happy that they couldn't continue on their way to Germany/Sweden immediately, because Austria is only letting a few hundred cross their border every day, but more than 8000 are coming into Slovenia daily now.

    Of course our media is still making sure to show as few videos where anything but women and children are shown as possible. It's just... mind-numbing.

    I embedded the video; since we're not hosting it (YouTube is) it's up to YT to decide where it can be shown.
     
  16. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I just found out that a few states here have banned Sharia law/tenets whatever and other states are considering. New Jersey is considering I hope they ban it.

    Seriously my first reaction after watching the video was "I'll be dead before the worse happens." then I realized that with the great job my doctors are doing keeping me alive and still functioning I may live to see it after all. I was so upset I forgot YouTube is responsible for the video and that was only a link.
     
  17. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Here's a thing that I don't understand. (First, Nakia, that was chilling.)

    If these people are basically saying to whomever will listen that their intent is to take over and impose Sharia, what kind of ostrich-moron governments do we have that keep taking them in and refuse to punish their behavior? I just don't get it.
     
  18. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    dmc, I do a lot of browsing on the Internet although I generally look for ancient history topics or my HEMA experts. There are various theories. One is our beloved conspiracy theory. A secret organization that is out to achieve global domination by creating all sorts of violent or economic disasters. Two is the extreme Leftists organizations who are kept in political power by the votes of these sick people.

    My theory is we have become blinded by the Equal Rigts, Free Speech, Political Correctness jargon we can't see the manure pile behind the garden house. Blame the White Man if all else fails. He must be wrong or if that doesn't satisfy you blame the Jew he is definitely wrong. I hope everyone reads that hearing the sarcastic tone I hear and would use if I were speaking.

    Yes I think Europe and America, USA America, did some wrong things and are partially to blame but we did not create a barbaric, outdated religious law that was discarded by the nations with Christian heritage. I am no lover of any religion but I think we out grew the Old Testament morals a long time ago and some of the goodness taught in the New Testament may even have penetrated our feeble minds.

    PS: It isn't just non Muslims tht are being injuryed but other people of Arabic descent. I have an Online friend who is half French and half Araic, Lebanon I think. These fanatics make life difficult for him. Not that he says much but sometimes it seeps through.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
  19. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    None of us with working brains here in Europe get it either, and yet it's happening everywhere. We're living in a politically correct nightmare. Pakistani paedophile sex gangs have operated completely undeterred for over 20 years in the UK (link), abusing over 1400 girls in a single town because the police there were mortally afraid of being labelled "racist" if they investigated it, so they actively did nothing instead. And this kind of behaviour is systematic whenever it comes to any Muslim crimes. Hush it up, pretend it isn't happening, never show/mention it in the media.

    What's finally coming out now is the result of this policy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
  20. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    There are people who speak out and they are labeled racist, nazis, fasciests etc by their fellow Europeans/Americans. There is distinct difference between being against someone becuse of his or her gender, race or even culture and being against their ideology. If our politicians were honest about some sort of extreme religious belief then Mormons should be allowed pologymy, human sacrifice should be acceptance or animal sacrifice. Every religion should have the same constraints and the same freedoms. To put it simply when I moved from New York to New Jersey I agreed to abide by the New Jersey State laws. When in New York do as the New Yorkers do, wait that might not be a good idea at times. When we registered with this Board we agreed to abide by the rules of this site. Spell Check be praised or I would have been banned within a very short time.
     
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