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Ragusa's puzzle - reporting on my building progress

Discussion in 'Techno-Magic' started by Ragusa, Nov 4, 2008.

  1. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Yes, I think they both have a soundchip. Stumbled over that information recently and I was puzzled why there were two different sound devices. How to handle this? Configurating anything in Vista is damn unintuitive, everything is streamlined but I can rarely find where you actually fiddle with stuff.

    Another piece of information, do not know if it is relevent but considering that chev wrote and i have seen it elsewhere that the 4850 cards have a heat problem my GPU is apparently at 73 degrees celsius while not really doing anything at all. It is a version without any fans, just extensive heatsinks.

    I have now deactivated one of my soundchips, only using the one on the motherboard, and it works fine on every application, for up to five minutes. Then the sound crashes from ventrilo to streamed video and from Total War to Starcraft. As for the heating, I think that is a big issue as well, I do not know if it is tied in with the sound or not though. I started WoW after a fresh restart of the computer and things were fine, all settings max, smooth, high fps everything nice except that I could hear the CPU fan getting shriller and shriller until after around five minutes the game froze. After I closed down the game from the control panel I went and checked the GPU temperature, 85 degrees celsius. I have no idea if this is a lot or not but I am starting to think that we should have shoved in that external fan we rejected in the last minute.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2008
  2. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Joa,
    what you tell about your CPU overheating stinks. I'm curious, what sort of cooler do you have? Even with a middle of the line product you ought to have acceptable temperatures at the price of some noise, but anyway, I have to ask this: Did you properly apply thermal paste? It does definitely sound as if you don't get sufficient cooling for your CPU, and that might be a reason. You should definitely check this.

    That said, those high end ATI GPUs run hot, 73° is not uncommon. It is said that this does not constitute a problem - if you have proper case ventilation, that is. Case ventilation is important. Knowing I would get myself a hot GPU I looked for a cool case, and in the Antec I definitely did find it.

    As for deactivating the sound chip, did you also de-install the drivers for it?

    Update #10:
    Vista 64 appears intent on ruining my gaming experience. It is unwilling to execute NWN2 properly and keeps reporting: "Program doesn't work anymore" No kidding. MassEffect I can barely play at all because it freezes so frequently, usually when entering a menu, or shop, or map, or journal or some such. When it is about shooting it is great fun and looks beautiful.

    Besides, pics are up :)
     
  3. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Yeah, reinstalled the drivers for the MoBo chip and as I wrote it is working fine up to the moment it crashes.

    I do not think it is the CPU that is overheating but the GPU, the CPU fan gets wired up since it is the only fan in the case so I guess as the GPU gets warmer and warmer the CPU fan needs to work harder and harder. I do not know much about computers in general, I handed over some rough specs I wanted fulfilled and got a list to approve then I helped build it but people who supposedly know a lot about these things and have built a lot of computers did most of the work. The GPU runs at 70+ degress while at rest and even a quite mild game like WoW made it run up to 85 before it froze. I wanted a silent computer so that was one of the things I specified which means there is no fan on the GPU and only a quite modest one on the CPU although both are riddled with heatsinks and coppertubing. As for cooling paste, we used the paste that the processor came with, it was covered with it from the box, dunno if it is enough.
     
  4. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    That definitely sounds like a heat problem. Maybe the guys who built it for you weren't so great in designing silent PCs? If they just threw a bunch of silent components into a case, it might not work out so great.

    Do you have a regular portable house fan? If so you could try opening the case and blowing air into it with a big fan and seeing if your crashing problems go away. If they do, then you know it's a heat problem and will need to add some case fans, or get a better GPU that doesn't overheat as easily.
     
  5. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Joa,
    BTA makes a good suggestion - I remember we used that in LAN parties under a roof in the summer with some of my friends running OCed computers that crashed due to heat - we put a portable fan in front of the open case and got them back gaming again, despite the heat :shake: It also could be an instant fix in case you need to game, now.

    Generally, you want to supply the case with cool air and remove the hot air - you want to have a draft in the case. The PSU fan in most cases also sucks air out of the case. If there are no extra fans in your case you will have to rely on your CPU cooler and your PSU fan - which is likely insufficient. I agree that in that case the hot GPU would be the most probable explanation for the crashes, too.

    A silent PC is perfectly feasible with two quiet fans - if your case allows for that. You might then perhaps want a fan controller, too, to decide whether you want quiet or cool case. Take good fans. Very quiet Noctua fans for instance are expensive, but they iirc come with a 6 year warranty. Generally the rule is - the larger the quieter, because they can run slower (when compared to a smaller diameter fan) to move a given amount of air through the case. The current large stendard diameter appears to be 12cm.

    What I do not get is whether your computer still crashes due to the sound issue. Does it?

    PS: Typing this from my brother's old Win98 computer that I built for him a decade or so ago - Duron 600 MHz, 128 MB RAM, 2 GB HDD. This piece of junk is obsolete. And noisy. But it still works, if slowly, for internet and e-mail.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2008
  6. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Nope, no household fan but the guy who built it had brought a few extra fans that he at first installed but hten removed because he didnt think they would be needed. Anyways I am giving up on the silent computer thing. It is basically because I want to have it chugging overnight if I have any big downloads and I live in a oneroom apartment but for that to work it would need to be *completely* silent and I do not think that is within my budget. Any sound quickly gets on my nerves when I try to sleep.

    The computer actually never crashed completely, WoW and NWN froze and in other applications the sound crashed. I am still not sure if I have one problem or two, if overheating makes the computer choppy and crashes the sound anytime it needs to work or I have one heating problem that freezes any application that use a bit of GPU power and one soundproblem unrelated to the heating.

    I unplugged my new one and is now using my old, dusty, noisy but functional machine.
     
  7. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Joa,
    before a computer overheats, it usually shuts itself down. Outright crashes would to me appear to be different issue, so I think you probably have two problems at your hands.

    Update #11:
    As for me, I start to be really annoyed by Vista64. It's not only that it just asks me if I really, really want to install a bought game - :borg: Vista doesn't know this file :borg: - it then asks me if I'm really, really, really sure :mad: Even when I execute the file for the n-th time. And there is no way to say: 'This file is ok, stop bugging me, you retarded manifestation of a programmers insanity!' PS: I switched off that UAC nonsense.

    Worse, as if that nuisance wouldn't be enough, it then won't even let me run NWN or KotoR 2 properly - "This program doesn't work anymore. Vista is trying to find a solution ..." :rolleyes: Point is, it tries in vain and phones home, and if it does report back at all it suggests something like: 'It can't be me, must be the game, or the graphics card, install a new patch or install a new driver'. And I can't play games as 'old' as two years, even though Vista64 promises full 32bit compatibility. So far the only game that runs stable (on my comp anyway) on Vista64 is Drakensang.

    In protest, I gave the HAL logo to my Vista account, and I modified my computer's sounds. On a critical error my computer now says with HAL's voice: Everything is going extremely well!
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2008
  8. Kitrax

    Kitrax Pantaloons are supposed to go where!?!?

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    Well, that didn't take long...and yet, you lasted longer than I expected. :p Vista just isn't worth the hassle, and the 64-bit version is even worse. :bad: :rolling:
     
  9. Erod Gems: 14/31
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    Well, UAC is a step in the right direction, but it can be annoying at times. It is a bit problematic now, as traditionally Windows software has run on administrator privileges, which is very stupid. The situation should improve over time. As for gaming on Vista 64-bit, no crashes, no problems whatsoever here, be it Mass Effect, NWN2, Vampire Bloodlines, even older games work fine. HoMM4 has still been the only one that I play which did not work, earlier ones work fine. It sounds as if you have some other more serious problems with your setup, not related to specific games or the OS.
     
  10. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Ok, I think I have made some headway on the heat problem. My GPU is now on 50 degrees while not really doing anything and 60 when it is. My problems perservere though. WoW freeze and the sound work for a very limited amount of time. Do I need to get the temp down further? Could it be vista that just plain sucks and I should install XP instead? Advice and ideas are more than welcome. :)
     
  11. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    I have both operating systems installed on the same computer and I don't notice any difference in operating temp between XP and Vista. My Intel Core2 2.4GHz, mounted in a themaltake Armor case, idles at 38-40 degrees and at 52-55 at almost full load.

    Vista is great for media like video editing, pictures and music, but is very flakey with games, and plus I don't like Exploiter 7. I use XP for games and the internet (Ver. 6), and I like it for older applications that won't even run in Vista. But I still use XP way more than Vista.
     
  12. Taza

    Taza Weird Modmaker Veteran

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    Uhh. That's the least sensible thing I've heard all day.

    Internet Explorer 6 leaks like a sieve, where Internet Explorer 7 runs in a sandbox of it's own making and even splits tabs by process. Or in English, Internet Explorer 7 is a lot more secure and stable out of the box than Internet Explorer 6 even fine-tuned by experts.

    Other than liking the backwards-designed interface - and that's the look, mostly - Firefox, Internet Explorer 7, Opera, Safari, Chrome, Konqueror, Kazehakase, SeaMonkey, K-Meleon... the list of better browsers goes on and on. Chrome (google integration), Konqueror (KDE integration), Kazehakase (Linux only) are not everyone's browsers... but otherwise they're suitable for everyone.
     
  13. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    I happen to like 6. Sorry you don't approve. Guess how many YEARS I've been running 6? Let's see, this 2008, and XP was released in 2001? That would be 7 years that I've had it, with NO problems, not once. Maybe you should rethink what you believe is "sensible."

    Good. It just happens to be my favorite language. :)
     
  14. Taza

    Taza Weird Modmaker Veteran

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    It's still like driving with your car's tires full of explosives - you might not have run into any problems, which in itself is incredible - but that doesn't make it sensible nor something most people who know about it would do.

    And English and Geek are separate languages. Same grammar, but different words.
     
  15. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Well, it could be a problem for George Bush and Homeland Security. We do have a "War on Terror" you know. And don't give anyone any ideas.

    And the "least sensible thing" I've heard all day is that "Obama wants to make America into Finland."

    So I guess we are even in that regard....
     
  16. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Actually, I am so thoroughly disappointed with Vista 64 for gaming that I really consider installing XP on a second partition just for gaming - but then I doubt the wisdom of that step, considering my virtual loss of 600 or so MB RAM and the ability to only play DX9 games. But then, that's still a lot of games.

    I eventually managed to wrestle some hours of game play from CrashEffect. When it runs, the game is beautiful, the story is good, the action is a lot of fun. It's just that it crashes about every 30 minutes. Luckily my computer reboots fast. What I absolutely cannot do is to go into a shop, or click around in the menu too curiously, as that will reliably crashes my game into hard lock. Thus far I haven't even once been able to buy an item. Solution: I thus avoid shops. And anyway, the way to deal with all this is to become a super saver and be very, very patient - which doesn't reflect my personality.

    Product support is so-so. That said, while they offer some solutions on their boards, they don't solve the problems I am experiencing. The product itself, or rather its reliability, is seriously flawed. I'm not a bloody beta tester - I have bought this game for good money, I want to play, not spend precious free time on fixing bugs that shouldn't be there in the first place. Looking at Radon Labs' Drakensang, how is it that they apparently can write a game that does run on Vista, very well even, whereas Bioware/EA games can't? My hunch is that it has to do with corporate policy and priorities, and not with competence.

    I am actually so annoyed by CrashEffect and Vista's problems with games generally that I start to see the appeal of consoles - put in the CD, and start playing.

    Erod,
    what comp do you have, and what are your major components? From what I read the hassles with CrashEffect spread pretty evenly throughout the PCsphere.
     
  17. Erod Gems: 14/31
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    In short: ABIT IP35, Intel E6850, 4 GB RAM, NVIDIA 9800 GTX+.
    CrashEffect was StableEffect here, I think this was the first Bioware game that I had no problems with. Technical problems that is, the game design could have been better...
     
  18. Merlanni

    Merlanni Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I am sorry to tell but I had only minor problems whit vista while gaming. Mass effect did crash a few times but I was able to play for hours. I had one problem whit the memory sticks. Once that was gone vista did as good as xp
     
  19. olimikrig

    olimikrig Cavalier of War Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I second Merlanni. Never had a single issue playing games on Vista64 (aside from minor fiddling to be able to play some older games). I've played Mass Effect for hours without a single crash.
     
  20. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Update for me, temperature problem is completely solved. Problems persists. The guy I bought it from brought it hmoe with him after having spent the entire afternoon at work working on it without figuring out what the hell the prolbem is. He at times thought he had solved the problems but no. His next mode of attack is to switch the harddrive and install XP to see if that works better. He is kinda flummoxed, can't understand what the problem is. Freeze lags and choppy graphics performance and sound crashes persists no matter what it seems.
     
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