POLL: Your religion

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Very funny Capstone. As I said earlier, I answered your question as an answer, not as a debate topic. Like you, I didn't want to see the thread hijacked. Though to be fair, I should have mentioned in my previous post that I am well aware of the reasons for disagreement

 

Excuse me for my ignorance, but what is LDS?

 

Nuhn, LDS is the acronym that more fairly represents what most people erroneosly(sp) call "Mormons". The real, official name of the church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." The last three words are often made into an acronym to identify members of this church. The unofficial nickname is Mormon, but I stress that this nickname is unofficial. Most LDS church members are used to the nickname, though, so it is not something we take a great deal of offense to, per se.

There! You learn something new every day!

 

Wow...Depaara thanks for doing all the arguing for me! But you could have let me do some of it...though my way would probably offend a lot of people.

What I meant by that is that we (Mormons) don't drink alcohol, or smoke, or have sex before we're married...Last time I checked, the Christian prophets didn't go out and get drunk and smoke a pipe after a days work of preaching.

I find it funny that some people think that the Book of Mormon is our special little "bible" when we also believe in both, The Old Testament and The New Testament...that's right: both! Last time I checked my bible it was still called the King James version...not the "Evil Mormon Version".

Also, I recently had an interview on wether I should go on a LDS mission, and after I told my Bishop how I would most likely be teaching...he started agreeing that joining the Air Force would be a better option for me! I prefer to put the information I have on the table, and smack anyone who dares make an uneducated remark against my church.

 

We, the Catholics don't get sex without marriage either - it's a Protestant concept. But if one claims that alcohol ban comes straight from the words of the Bible I recommend Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon. In New Testament Jesus Himself drank wine although not for the fun of it this time.

 

I'm aware that there is no ban on alcohol in the Bible, but there are frequent admonitions not be a drunkard. As Kitrax says, Mormon behaviour is quite strict and in that sense shows a serious devotion to what we believe to be God's will. While I do not agree with the theological arguments against Mormons, I understand them. In the end, it boils down to what your definition of "Christian" is.

I'm not really sure I'd say that premarital sex is a Protestant concept -- most faithful Protestants that I know do not have pre-marital sex, as their denominations frown on such behaviour. I also know some Catholics who do indulge. I think that's less a matter of theology than of devotion

 

My understanding is that the wine that they drank back in the day of Jesus is the same thing as grape juice is now...non alcoholic.

 

No, no, not really. It's merely that wine was considerably weaker in Jesus day (about one third the alcohol content, IIRC).

Kitrax, perhaps you should open a new forum on LDS doctrine. I'd be happy to debate with you, and perhaps be educated in my turn.

I'm aware, of course, that the Mormons still believe in the Bible... but the Book of Mormon is considered to be the latter-day revelation of Jesus Christ, and thus, generally speaking, the most definitive source for their doctrine.

 

Oh, I'm going to get into deep trouble with this one -- I'd rather not see a thread on Mormon doctrine or theology on the board. I realize I'm powerless to stop it, but my reverence for my religion is such that I would hate to see it debated in this sort of forum (and by this sort I mean any electronic forum, I am not dissing SP in particular). I do not fear debates, but I want them in a more suitable space. That's my two cents worth -- if such a thread opens, please don't be offended by my absence.

 

I agree.

C'Jacob...if you want to be informed...contact the LDS Mission Leader in your area and discuss things with him, or invite some LDS Missionaries over to your house to talk about it...that is why they're there ya' know.

 

Coming back to the wine issue, it was above all mixed with water unless drinking solely for fun or someone didn't have to try hard not to get drunk. There was practically no age restriction, although kids weren't getting it neat. I suppose wine used as basic drink (like juice) was much weaker, as Capstone says, but they definitely had 'normal' wine as well. They had to get drunk somehow (and they did not so rarely) and simply not everyone likes watery drinks I don't know about the percentage of alcohol in the wine Jesus drank with His disciples, but they were treating it as juice apparently. However, the approach in Ecclesiastes or Song of Solomon is not exactly the same

 

I once tried to engage a sweet little old lady, a Jehovah's Witness who had come to my door to make sure my soul was all right, in debate on the "Jesus drank wine" issue. I loved her response: "Well, my dear girl, when you can turn water into wine, you can drink it too!"

[Edit: Depaara, I'm sorry that I did not know that members of your faith do not call themselves "Mormons". I knew the correct name for the denomination but not the name for its adherents. Can you please enlighten me/us?]

[ March 14, 2003, 18:32: Message edited by: Sprite ]

 

Often called just "Saints", IIRC.

On the wine issue again: I think chevalier's right, they watered it down. But as for treating it just as juice, I don't think so. Even Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach. However, he also told the Ephesians not to get drunk. So I'd say (although I don't drink) that a little wine (think very very moderate here) is not against Scripture at all.

I am curious, Kitrax and Depaara. What exactly do you mean by suitable space? Part of my issue here is that I'm in the Midwest, and I know more about LDS doctrine than the Saints themselves out here. I do actually have the Book of Mormon, but it makes for some difficult reading (at least, if you start from the front. I don't know where else to start.). I'm quite reverent and devoted to my belief, but I don't feel at all averse to sharing it or debating it over the Internet, so I don't understand where you're coming from.

 

Depaara. I found it interesting that members of your church do not smoke or drink alcohol. How is this derived in your faith?

I am curious, since I don't do this either. And I am not a Christian though I still do believe in what Jesus stood for and taught...

 

If you follow Jesus, doesn't that make you a Christian?

Or do you not believe in his Godhood?

 

Capstone, I guess some people show their reverence for their faith in odd ways. I'm not thinking of anyone in particular here, but the concept of "pearls before swine" comes to mind in some ways -- my faith is the most precious pearl I have -- I see it trampled, mocked, distorted and generally misunderstood too often in the solid world, I'd hate to see it happen where I have my refuge (here at SP, as it were.) Tell you what, I'll answer any serious theological questions via PM. Think of it as a personality quirk!

However, having said that, I'll answer Khazraj's question, believing it to be well intentioned -- we believe in modern revelation -- just as God spoke through his prophets in the Bible, we think he still speaks today. And He has said to abstain, as of the late 1800s.

For Information only!

As an aside, I don't think badly of people who drink, just people who drink and drive, or addicts who come home, beat the tar out of their families and blame it on the liquor. The vast majority of drinkers are decent folks -- many of them are my friends!

 

Treating wine as juice doesn't include believing you can drink as much of it as of juice Well, of the watered wine probably yes - I can't imagine how anyone could get drunk through it. Especially where water was bad beer and wine became normal substitutes (not water down of course). This way people were getting used to them. It works the same way as vaccination or training.

 

I think a lot of the bible constantly reiterates the point that almost anything is okay, as long as it is in moderation. I think (and I'm going off of memory here) that the idea is that if you do something in excess, than you are effectively worshipping something over God. Being a slave to drink, and all that.

 

Capstone. This is not meant to be offensive, these are my thoughts. I truly don't want to start an argument. If you feel otherwise that's ok, you are allowed to. If you want to discuss more then PM would be better.

You don't have to be a Christian to be a follower of Jesus. I believe in him and what he taught and stood for.

No, I don't believe in his godhood. I don't believe that humans can be or become God, and likewise I don't believe that God can become human or "incarnate" Himself. Ice can't be water and steam at the same time.

"Jesus is God" for me is impossible because the sentence itself is illogical and meaningless. The 2 concepts don't match, in the same way that "a triangle has 5 sides".

I don't see that Rama or Krishna can be God and nor do I see that Jesus or other prophets can be God "incarnate". It doesn't work.

My personal feelings.


Dragons' Jewel. Were you thinking of Old or New Testaments? The Torah is explicitly proscriptive on some things being very "un okay"...(like worshipping idols and taking false gods)

 

I find this discussion very interesting and would like to thank all participants for giving me new views to the subject, even though I still do not have the slightest inclination to start believing in the Christian faith again, I have found quite a few more things to ponder on.

*goes off to find a Bible to read*

It has been too long since I read the Bible... way too long. I need to refresh my memory. Although I have read said book thorough at least seven times, the last time I did so was about 7 years or so ago... (and yes, I was only 10 at the time. So? I was about 7 or so when I read it for the first time...)

(Hmm... Starting to quote the Bible might make me even MORE weird...)