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POLL: Most persecuted religion

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Blackhawk, Jul 25, 2003.

  1. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    Well, I do not think that this applies to all muslim religions (alevits come to mind). And the main difference was that liberalism prevailed and obviously, the churches had to cede power and influence to the liberal "individual" versus their traditional collectivism. You can not be a free individium and be "spiritually tutored".

    Difference between "cult" and "religion" ? Member count goes over one million.
     
  2. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
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    I want to clarify that i chose Islam as the most percecuted religion of this century because due to recent events and the relatively low level of life quality that exists in most Muslim countries has made most developed countries citizens to look with suspicion every person originates from a Muslim country. That is the percecution of this century prejustice and everything that goes with it :(
    LMAO that was a good one Blackhawk. I still can't believe that you strongly believe that the constitution of the USA is still followed to the last sentence by people who have broke the law (constitution) and now they are in the seats of power
    I think that Palaistine was conquered because Israel wanted more breathing space. Now the hills of Goran IIRC were occupied for protection against a possible threat from Syria. Possible is in bold because this tactic reminds me the recent tactic of preemptive strike :rolleyes:
     
  3. Morgoth

    Morgoth La lune ne garde aucune rancune Veteran

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    Ahem, thats the other way around
     
  4. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Actually he wasn't an atheist, he even was a canon at his city's Cathedral chapter. The thing is that his discoveries could have been considered a religious matter rather than one of science. Lots of various obscure and mislead scientifical theses were considered almost dogmas of faith (not that they've ever been so). He would most likely be labelled heretic and not atheist, not much difference from the point of view of his life expectancy.
     
  5. Laches Gems: 19/31
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    Ok, your definition of 'persecution' must be different than mine. You state that you're considering this entire century (which I take to mean ~1900+). Then you state that the persecution they have sufferend over this century is that people look at them suspisciously. You state they are the most persecuted of the CENTURY because of recent events? I promise you, as bad as things may be in recent years, we haven't seen persecution of one religion coming anywhere close to the level of the Holocaust and Stalin's 'programs' in recent years (which rounded up Muslims as well as Jews and othe groups just not on the same level).

    To insist otherwise strikes me as very puzzling.

    Also, I think it safe to say that the persecution faced by Muslims goes far beyond mere suspiscion and I bet there are a lot of Muslims who wish that that was all they had to worry about -- though I think most of that persecution isn't BECAUSE they are Muslim but rather for political reasons. Look at it this way, one of the bad instances of persecution in the US was of those who were from Japan in WWII but it wasn't because of their religion - their religion merely correlated with the persecution that occurred for unrelated political reasons.
     
  6. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    At Chevalier: Yeah, you're right. I've had excepts from his writings in my physics book at school. His findings, that the stars and the sun were "so perfect and full of harmony", that there never was any better proof of god then the very matter which would endanger his life. I really like that "introduction" he wrote.
     
  7. Alurith Gems: 1/31
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    -- to Splunge
    Once again I like to point out that Atheism is a Belief NOT a Religion. Even Agnoticism is way better than Atheism. (at least they do something about their belief).
    In Atheism you only believe that there is no greater being (God) or believed that there is a greater being but you refused to worship it for various reasons (the deity is not worthy enough for you to worship, haven’t found a religion that suits your style/way, you think that your faith level is to low to understand a relion, and a lot more reasons that I forgot right now) Atheis people do nothing to assert their belief, they do not have a ritual, they do not have a common code of ethic, they don’t even have the same philosophy of life. Atheis just do what they want to do with their own moral compass as guidance.

    -- to Yago
    if we included Atheism and Agnoticism for the reason you mentioned, than the title of the poll should be changed to most persecuted because religious reasons. And if “persecuted for religious reasons” comes to play then the winner would surely be SATANISM. A lot of country allowed their citizen to be Atheis or not to choose any religion. There is no country in the World that would allow Satanic worshipper as their citizen (should they choose to openly display their ritual, they’re as good as dead)

    -- to Morgoth
    from the description I made about Religion and Cult, then the difference would be the deity they choose to worship. Religion believe the deity to be Almighty (greater than human or anything else for that matter), the root of all root, the beginning and the end which is widely known and approved by many around the globe. A deity/mascot/symbol for a Cult doesn’t have to be like that. It could be a lesser god, it could be a sage, it could be a book, it could be anything or everything they wished for. Yago comment about member count also serves as a good example. A cult also have a bad connotation, just like what Splunge said

    -- to Laches
    Blachawk’s lack of definition of persecution and the lack of time range makes me confused too.
    I also agree that persecution to Islam has gone more than a mere suspicion. Islam has receive the world’s branding as a bad religion, the religion of terrorist. It is a political reason for now but I think that it would change to religion discrimination in the near future (the signs is many and become more apparent in the recent month)
     
  8. Morgoth

    Morgoth La lune ne garde aucune rancune Veteran

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    I see no reason why Satanists should be persecuted.

    Church of Satan
    This site is becoming usefull :D

    That seems like a 2nd suicide, ignoring the person who guards your afterlife. Quite moronic if you ask me.

    Ooooooh I get it, it is way better to waste my time with useless silly rituals :rolleyes: (Note, this should not be taken literally, don't feel offended by this one, sorry)


    Isn't Jesus/Mohammed a sage, the Bible/Quran a book and heaven everything we wished for?
     
  9. nior Gems: 24/31
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    Cult - A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. - Dictionary.com

    That's basically the difference between religion and cult. Christianity and Islam are not considered as cult but they have cults under them. Some examples would be:

    Christianity: the Protestants, Evangelist and other sect may consider Roman Catholics, Jehovah's Withnesses and others as cults. And maybe vice-versa.

    Buddhism: the Indian Buddhists considers the Chinese Buddhists as cults.


    Atheist and Agnostic beliefs as religions, personally I believe that they are not but I don't really care much if they would be considered as such. Forgive me for the ignorance, but I believe that I have yet to hear about somebody being persecuted because he/she is an atheist or agnostic. And should there be, I think it would be isolated cases, not exactly large scale. Not large enough like the Jews being persecuted by the Germans, or the Christians being persecuted by the ancient Romans, or the Muslims being branded as terrorists today. Just my thoughts.
     
  10. Alurith Gems: 1/31
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    -- to Morgoth
    Wow I didn’t know that Satan has a good version (like most of the people I’m sure). Maybe I should make a poll to see if Satan is evil or not. Nevertheless your knowledge amaze me Morgoth.
    Although a few question comes to mind, have you read most of the site ? Have you read the Satanic Bible or the Satanic Rituals ? Have you ever consider the fact that it could be a front ? (Satan is very deceitful you know)
    If your answer to the questions above confirms that this Satan of the Church of Satan to be a good one, then maybe we’re not talking about the same Satan. And this Church of Satan is just another cult with a same name. My Satan/Satanist comes from the Bible and Qur’an. The Satan that is described in Salman Rusdhie’s Satanic Rites book. The books that explain the step by step of the Bloody sacrifices Rituals and the rites that need to be said. The books that cost him his life.
    The Satan of the Church of Satan is also coming from a pre-Christian time. Could it be possible that this Satan is the Satan that is still an Angel and not the Fallen Angel one that today peoples know ?

    You see no reason for them to be persecuted, but the site clearly indicate that they are not free to express their beliefs in public, moreover perform their ritual in front of public. They feel compelled to do that because they fear the hostility that the people shows towards them.

    Maybe it’s sound like a second suicide or moronic to you, but not to the Atheis who found these reasons to be their reason to choose Atheism. (I’m happens to be an atheis in the past, with these exact reasons)

    About Agnosticism being better than Atheism. I know you know what I mean and that you’re just trying to be a jerk about it. ^_^ :D

    Most Important
    Jesus and Muhammad are indeed sages (Prophet or Messenger to be exact), The Bible and Holy Qur’an are indeed books, and Heavens are everything that we wished for. But please don’t get it wrong, Islam and Christian doesn’t worship these things (material things that are bound to be destroyed) as far as we concern these are just books of rules and a person that spread and teach these religion. In no circumstances that these books and persons be worshipped.
    Morgoth, please tell me you’re kidding and that you truthfully you already know about this and you only writing that argument to test me (and that I only wrote this out of paranoia)

    If you wish to further discuss this then I suggest you PM me and talk this matter privately. Cause I think we’re out of topic.
     
  11. Master of Nuhn

    Master of Nuhn Wear it like a crown Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Seeing all rants on our beloved boards, I might think it's Christianity.

    When I say something to defend the Islam, people tell me I'm a good boy.
    When I say something to explain Christianity, people tell me to shut up.
    We are all so equal! :toofar:
    This might seem bollocks to you, but I am experiencing it time and again.

    I don't say Christians are most persecuted, but I feel it's getting worse.
    Seeing the worlds attitude to jews, I think Judaism is still worse, with the Islam as a second.

    Where I live, non-atheists seem to be stupid or something.
     
  12. Rallymama Gems: 31/31
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    MoN, would you like one person's opinion as to the reason behind that reflexive "Shut Up!" reaction? For me, it's because so many discussions of Christianity devolve into either proselytizing or "You're going straight to Hell, you hopeless sinner." Most adults don't want or need to hear that.

    Now, I do try to supress that reaction when a scholarly discussion is under way. It's just been my unfortunate experience that the informative conversation gives way to the Christian's need to preach. Not all the time, mind you, but frequently enough that my defenses go up automatically.

    I find it interesting that adherents of most other religions are able to accept that followers of different religions can have a meanignful relationship with God - but not Christians. Christians, moreso than any other group, want to set the spiritual rules for everyone around them. I'm willing to believe that this is because you feel so much joy in your faith that you want to share it with everyone you meet, but why can't you accept that I feel an equal joy albeit from a different source?

    Remember, this is my opinion and a generalization based on my experiences. That said, let me add that the religious discussions here on SP are generally very informative and enjoyable.
     
  13. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    It's funny (sick funny, not 'hah-hah' funny). Every time I page through this thread I get a mental image: Sort of a Mel Brooks-like movie with a bunch of Jews in Auchwitz on their way to the gas chamber chanting "We're number 1."

    Before anyone flips out, I'm Jewish (or at least raised that way and certainly culturally Jewish), so I get the free self-mockery pass.

    I think that, until someone changes the definition of persecution or sets a time period that does not include the Inquisition or the Holocaust, everyone else is playing for second place.
     
  14. Master of Nuhn

    Master of Nuhn Wear it like a crown Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Partially agreed.
    If a Christian claims that someone goes to hell, then please let him shut up. We can't judge other people, so we can't say anything about their afterlife.
    But I can't see anything wrong with proselytizing. When we think we know something that might be good for you, we are happy to tell you. From the christian's view a very social and loving thing to do. If you have a good tip for someone, it would be selfish and antisocial not to tell him and let him stew in his own juice. We are not to lecture others, we just want to tell others about something beautiful. If you think otherwise, tell them you're not interested. If they keep nagging and annoying you again and again, then please, for your own health and others safety, tell them to shut up! ;)

    The shut up-reaction I was talking about:
    Examples; A few years ago, someone insulted Mohammed. A stupid thing to do, of course. Islams started to complain and everybody in the Netherlands agreed it all was wrong. And I agreed, too.
    A few weeks later, billboards showed a man nailed on a cross and a text saying something provoking, (but funny) something to do with Jesus, suits and a terrible disease.
    Complaining christians were simply told to shut up. Do Islam have more rights to complain simply because they are a minority?

    I hope you will have btter experiences in the future.
    The discussions are informative and enjoyable, yes, though sometimes I take great offence in reading some posts (Not yours, Rallymama)

    Btw: It's been nice disagreeing with you again. ;)
     
  15. Rallymama Gems: 31/31
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    Same here, MoN. :) You and Mat and a few others give Christians a good name! ;)
     
  16. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
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    @ Laches
    I did not say that Islam is the most persecuted religion just because others look at them suspiciously. I said that they face prejustice because they are having a whole different culture which makes them look strange and a little savage to the eyes of the western citizens. And this is a fact even before the recent events. Not to mention that here in Balkans because of the history and the role of the muslims played in this they are not only looked suspiciously but thoughts go a little hostile. Do you know what it happened in Bosnia-Erzegobine; The Serbs and i mean the soldiers where killing muslims not just because they were told so, there was a religious conflict more than anything else and vice versa. All the attrocities that happened there where the outcome of this hate.
    Most muslims in many countries are facing problems to get a job and become members of the society of that country because they are different and different sometimes is a disadvantage.
    I do agree that the Holocaust or the persecutions of Stalin were far worse than that but this is the 21st century not the 20th and in this century Islam is the winner by far as and future events will show.
     
  17. Laches Gems: 19/31
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    Oh, by the 'last century' you meant the 'last 3 years.' My bad.
     
  18. Valkyrie Gems: 7/31
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    I'd have to say Judaism is the most persecuted. Which is a shame because it is a very old religion and one of (or THE) first monotheistic religions. Also, most of those who persecute them are Christians (ahem, Hitler, cough cough) but Christianity is partly judaism! The Old Testament is the same as their Torah. The God is the same, so what gives?? Plus, Jesus was Jewish, so if we persecute Jews, would we then be indirectly persecuting him, or saying that because he was Jewish he went to hell? Christians say the Jews killed Jesus, but wasn't the Romans? If it WAS the Jews, how can we punish them? Jesus said, on the cross, 'Father, forgive them for they do not know what they have done.' Then shouldn't Christians forgive them? Also, Christians say 'judge not lest ye be judged?' Uh guys, there's been a fair amount to judging going on here.

    Islam is also persecuted because they're 'terrorists.' yeah, right. Not every muslim is a terrorist. Come off it.

    Now with the conclusion of my irritated (and possibly irritating) speech, I would like to impart my opinion. "Everyone shut up and don't worry about what everyone else believes. It really doesn't matter to you."
     
  19. Morgoth

    Morgoth La lune ne garde aucune rancune Veteran

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    Actually, about who was he talking??
     
  20. Master of Nuhn

    Master of Nuhn Wear it like a crown Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    About both the romans and the mob, about the ones who crucified Him. The mob wanted Him dead, Pontius Pilatus (Roman governer) 'had found no fault in this man touching those things whereof you (the mob) accused Him'. But Pilatus was a weakling and afraid, so he had let Jesus hang on the cross. You could say that Jesus was hanged by the romans, the farizees and the jews, better said: the rulers, the religeous leaders and the mob. Hanged by the world, people just like us. Christians can't blame the jews for accusing Christ, cause if Jesus didnt hang on the cross, Jesus was not the Christ and without the Christ, no Christians.

    Christians are not partially jewish, since jews don't believe that Jesus was the Christ. If you don't believe in the Christ (Jesus), then your not a christian. Jews that did or do believe in Christ, are christians too: 'christian-jews'
    You're right, Valkyrie, that the jewish Torah is the same as the christian old testament. But that doesnt mean that jews are the same as christians. (You do probably know that, but there might be others that do not and would think christians are partially jews. I've had that conversation before)

    ...er, I was trying to say something but I lost my point. Oh well, I'll post this anyway so I didnt spend my time for nothing... :o

    [ August 07, 2003, 01:59: Message edited by: Master of Nuhn ]
     
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