POLL: Infidelity: Are you a cheater?

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@ Chandos

Agreed. That's more or less the point I was trying to get across as well, though apparantly I did a crappy job. And I didn't think you were defending infidelity.

 

I am guilty.

My wife and i were married at very young age and two years into our marriage i made one of the biggest mistakes of my life. I felt like a complete a-hole and confessed to wife. She's got a quick temper and filed for divorce the very next day. We were divorced for about three years but kept in close contact, we claimed that we kept in contact because of our son. That was true but, not the whole truth. Deep inside we knew we were meant to be together so, after counseling and countless long talks we fixed it and got re-married. Yes, she married me twice, and you guys thought I was strange.

Anyway, it's a mistake i'll never make again.

 

Death Rabbit - I understand what you meant. (I would have posted sooner but I had to run off to work). I don't think you did a bad job at all of expressing yourself on this, or for that matter, most other issues you comment on. My post was directed at Rastor. I just felt that the issue was not quite so black and white as some were making it appear. And I thougt you created the thread in an open ended way that invited a dialogue on a very complex subject. To just say, if you cheat, then just leave, is almost the same as saying topic closed, let's move on, if you know what I mean. This is a subject that I am intensely interested in, because of my belief that love is the greatest power in our lives. But yet the most difficult to understand. I would challenge anyone commenting on this topic to provide us with a working definition of what love really is.

Greenlion - That is a great life-story that you shared with us. I too believe that in many ways love is just fated to be. It seems to move with a power of its own. I am happy for you that it brought you and your wife back together again.

 

Chandos-doesn't love have a different definition for everyone? For some people, it's simply a physical thing (which I'd define as lust), for others it goes much deeper. I think the Renaissance poets defined it best.

The figures were international figures for arranged marriages and US figures for 'normal' ones.

I'm well aware the marriages break up for reasons other than cheating. Most cultures that practice arranged marriages have to stay together for financial reasons. IIRC, in some, only the men are allowed to work and welfare is non-existant, which means that the women cannot survive on their own.

In Western culture, things are more even between the sexes, and that removes the financial dependence between the husband-wife match.

 

I think it's high time for some nitpicking, isn't it? Cheating as a word implies violating the rules binding both parties. Technically it's not cheating if nothing like rules is violated and technically it doesn't matter if the other side has already been cheating or not.

As far as arranged marriages go, one can't really forbid a person to love someone other than the lawfully wedded spouse. Still, fidelity is fidelity and arranged doesn't mean forced, which is ab initio invalid.

However, there are some cases in which it's difficult to condemn the cheating person - if the person has been deserted by his spouse and divorce doesn't apply, for example. It's of course not justified, but still not the same as immediate selfish fulfilment, which is the case in 'regular' cheating.

Another point that needs to be raised is that most of the people who condemn cheaters (not cheating itself) have never been in a similar situation. They can only say what they themselves would do, would they resist temptation or not. It's actually very likely and practically sure that persons who have cheated thought the same once in past. Of course, I only refer to serious cases and not accidental side-sex that is purely selfish and condemnable. So is keeping anyone thinking that he or she is the only one. Again, the deed itself is so and not the person, who may well be a better man overall than the fire and brimstone critic.

 

Rastor - I completely agree. What I meant though by "working definition" for love is one that most everyone can agree on. That is the difficulty.

And I agree that the Renaissance poets explored the concept of love as fully as could be accomplished. On the otherhand, the medieval poets were, in many ways, preoccupied with the nature of lust, desire and infidelity - the triangle of Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere, The Lays of Marie de France, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, etc. But here I am just generalizing. There are all kinds of readings and different takes on the Wife of Bath alone.

 

Thanks everyone. This is turning into a great thread. Kudos especially to my homies LKD, Greenlion and others for sharing such personal insights.

I originally started this topic because I find the whole idea of infidelity and people's views on it to be fascinating. Specifically, whether or not the perception and acceptance of infidelity has changed much over the last few decades. I suppose part of the fascination comes from how I personally have never cheated - it's never even occured to me - yet I know so many people who have, and they either see it as no big deal or are so oblivious and wrapped up in their "party" mentality that they don't even realize they're cheating. What can I say...Houston is a major poon town. Almost every friend I have here has cheated on someone at least once. Because of this, they all think I'm such a "nice guy," but then again they also tell me they wish they could have a relationship as stable as mine.

I'd like to touch on what Rastor had reminded me I'd completely forgotten to add into the survey: flirting. Probably one of the most trivial aspects of the whole relationship thing, and one that can easily breed insecurity and cause a rift between two people, whether there was feeling behind it or not.

What constitutes flirting to you? When does it become different from, say, playful joking or conversation? When do you consider flirting to cross the line into cheating? Or, do you think flirting and infidelity are mutually exclusive?

 

Your comments on flirting are funny, Death Rabbit. You know, I think it's a very slippery slope from flirting to cheating. It's tough to draw finite lines on what flirting is, even. Is sharing a joke with someone flirting? Maybe yes, maybe no, depends on the context. Lunch or coffee? Same thing

But I don't see the possibility of cheating occuring without soome flirting foreplay. My rule of thumb is "would I feel comfortable telling my wife about this?" If so, I'm good to go. If not, I'd better stop whatever I'm doing and get back home to my family.

I have a lot of female friends, and we talk sometimes, and maybe even some people would say I flirt with them -- I dated a lot of them before I put the ring on. But I tell my wife everything and as long as she's good with it, and I can face God (yes, I know, my perception of God, I'm a fool for believing in him, blah blah blah, heard it, so save the time of typing it again) I think I'm pretty safe.

 

Aha! So, it can be said that flirting is kind of like "the gateway drug." Ever heard of cigarettes and alcohol being refered to as "the gateway drugs?" While legal and socially acceptable, the damage they can do varies based on frequency of use, and the "gateway" means they lead to the use of harder substances. IE, flirting, while considered the norm of being social, can lead, if unchecked, to a ride on the old "bone rollercoaster," to quote one of my favorite movies.

So in a way, flirting is "the gateway infidelity." That's a good point - you don't just walk up to someone you've never met, drop your pants and go to work (though...wouldn't that make life so much easier? ). You establish at least a casual relationship, and flirt at ascending degrees to let the other person know you're interested in the old "in-out." So it becomes cheating depending on your intent and intensity. Brilliant.

I think I'll write a book called "Flirting: The Gateway Sex." Eat THAT, Oprah!

 

Be careful, buddy -- Oprah will eat anything!!

Oh, man why am I in such a weird mood today?

Anyhow, I hope you don't mind if I use that "gateway behaviour" idea -- good way to word it.

 

Flirting is a dangerous, dangerous thing, and comparing it to a gateway drug is very fitting. I have the problem of being overly friendly... I love everyone until they give me reason not to. It got me into trouble with my prior relationship, who also happened to be my husband at the time, because he thought I was flirting. To my own mind, I was not... I treated men the same as I treated women. To him I was, because I was being friendly. Is that flirting then, or not?

 

Well, it depends. I say no, but you can compare it to a little equation of mine from above:

...or somesuch variation, but note the "x insecurity" part.

IMO, since you know you weren't flirting, and he saw it as otherwise, then it's more about his insecurity then your friendly behavior. Perhaps your "friendliness" doesn't seem as flirtatious to you as it does to others, but even still, wouldn't you think he would have known your social habits by then? Trust me - male insecurity is a mighty beast that can easily change the thinking of even the most seemingly confident guy.

 

Normally to one's own mind things may appear drastically different, but if you treated men exactly the same as women, then no, it wasn't flirting.

Being friendly has one serious drawback as far as relationships are concerned: it consumes time and affection, sort of. Generally speaking (from here on nothing refers to specific persons), if you talk to friends a lot and don't have the time or strength to talk to your partner, then it's close to cheating, but on some other level than just flirting. I had a girlfriend who couldn't understand this (kept interpreting it as my being jealous at betrayal/not level) ... for a week. It wasn't the most productive week in my life.

 

Well, that goes back to the "Harry met Sally" thing: can a guy and girl really be just friends? IMO, they can only be friends in a casual way. If the friedship deepens then the danger that more will happen is always there. It may never happen, but the danger is still there nevertheless.

Also, I not sure I've ever understood how certain drugs can be a "gateway" to more dangerous drugs. Cigarettes or alochol can kill you just as dead as any other drug, so I fail to see what it matters.

 

@ Chandos

Before we get terribly off topic...they're called "gateway drugs" because probably 9 times out of 10 people who use hard drugs are introduced to it through cigarettes or alcohol, or at least the idea of getting intoxicated. Sure they all kill you just the same, but people don't often start with heroine - in fact, that's extremely rare. You drink for the first time (it's much easier to acquire), you like it, you drink often, you get bored with it, you want something with a little more kick, and so on. "You like getting drunk? Try this!" It's actually a very solid theory.

And while I agree they will all kill you just as dead, the speed at which these drugs can kill you is certainly greater with the hard stuff. Depending on the dose of course this is comperable, but you get the idea. I guarantee you if my grandfather shot up heroine every day of his life since his twenties (instead of smoking), he would have died a lot sooner than 89. No...that's not a pro-smoking statement.

On topic, like gateway drugs, flirting leads to other things. The more you flirt with someone, the more attracted you become. So the danger in flirting is creating more interest in and attraction to the other person. You can decide you're not interested in someone that way, but after flirting with someone awhile, something just gets to you and piques your interest. Like friends who end up together - it happens every day.

[ June 20, 2003, 01:45: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]