POLL: Greatest American

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He stop. I demand that Einstein is considered in poll in the same way his considered by the nobel-price-commettee. And that happens to be Swiss. He only became American 20 years after the nobel-price. Or you could that say that he represents the scientific leading country of his time, which happens to be Germany.

 

There are some on there that I didn't recognise.

But I say Martin Luther King.

 

I think that's the most complex and interesting part of Franklin's character. He was modest, yet he always made it a point to draw attention to his "modesty." Much of his modesty reminded me of that quote (not his), "if I only had humility, I'd be perfect." I can't remember who actually said that though. He was a shamless self-promoter, while at the same time, commenting on how "unworthy he was of promotion."

Then there is his autobiography, as didactic a document as it is in describing Franklin's own unassuming simplicity and frugality. Like many of the founders, Franklin was very human. If he was larger-than-life, so were his faults. He loved to be instructive and his letters to those close to him, especially beautiful, intelligent, young girls, which he tended to gravitate towards, are loaded with his opinion on how they needed to be more unassuming, frugal, economic and domestic. But Franklin, for all his humility, would competely agree with your remarks. We can see him winking at us from behind his spectacles, agreeing that if more Americans imitated him, and took his advice, we would be that much better off -- and we would.

Edit: Iago - I agree with your comments. I had acutally written more on Einstein, but as you can tell, I erased most of it. He was really never an American, in the real sense. I could not recall if he was born in Germany or Switzerland. I knew he had spent most of the first part of his life in both countries. But I included him because he was not only the great scientist, but also a strong voice for world peace, and he drew attention to the dangers of advancing science in the cause of nationalsim, rather than the good of mankind. IMO, that raises him to a world figure, rather than just a great American (not that Jefferson and Franklin are not).

[ June 10, 2005, 07:15: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

Erg. No like the options. Blame it on the discovery channel, which makes its living on biopics of the rich and famous. Politicians, popular entertainers, and businessmen are way over-represented.

I guess I'd rather see people who came up with big ideas than people who served as symbolic figureheads

Politicians generally come from a gene pool of ambitious, patronizing, self-promoting busybodies. Lacking any other talent, spend all their time trying to put themselves in a position to tell other people what to do. The funny thing is, they generally don't really have any sort of idea as to what they should tell other people to do once they get the chance, so they have to rely on smarter people than themselves to tell them what to do and say. It's a shame we have to go so far back in US history to find politicians who could at least frame an original thought.

And people like Bill Gates? What has he done except build a monopoly? Has M$ ever done more than buy other companys' technology and write self-serving legal contracts?

 

I guess it depends on our definition of 'great'.

 

George W? Bill Clinton? WTF?

I voted for Edison, but am ticked off that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were not on the list...

 

@ Bion - Bill Gates may be the biggest philanthropist the world has ever seen, so he does put a lot of the billions that MS has made to good use.

@ Bion and HB (his earlier comment) - these are the top 25 nominations by the people - that's why people like Lance Armstrong are on the list. I agree that if Lance was only known for winning six Tour de France titles, and did not overcome cancer in the process, there's no way he would have made the list. I always thought it was strange that when someone overcomes a potentially fatal disease, they describe it as "heroic". I do not see how that is true - it's not like they had any choice about getting the disease in the first place.

@ Gnarff - If you check out the discovery channel online, you can look at the entire list of the top 100, and both Smith and Young made the list of the top 100. Smith was ranked higher than young - somewhere around #40. Keep in mind that this list was based on the nominations from Americans from all over the place, and since most of them don't belong to the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints, they may not even know about Smith and Young. Admittedly, I have to say everyone should of at least heard of Young - he does have a major university named after him.

 

Probably because:

Mormon leaders have made over 4,000 corrections in Smith's translation. Many of the changes were made to correct embarrassing spelling and grammatical errors.

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/126/126_01.asp

Edit:

The point I was trying to make that websites like www.chick.com have a huge following and unfortunately because they are well written people will believe them before questioning their intent.

Sorry for an offense caused.

[ June 10, 2005, 16:37: Message edited by: Cesard the Fir Bolg ]

 

Ben Franklin is Benjamin Franklin, right? He was one of those I voted for.

I don't consider Einstein as an American, so it was not a poll choice for me. Although he had spent his whole life in USA since 1933 and had done his most important scientific activity there, he wasn't an American originally. I don't mind if USA feels Einstein as their scientist, in fact they have 100% right to do so, Einstein is mentioned as an American scientist and it's ok that way. Lots of European scientists immigrated to USA for various reasons including political background or -- more often -- the fact the home country couldn't spend enough money for developments, couldn't support science well enough -- USA welcomed (and still welcomes) such scientists with outstretched arms. (And it's correct this way). I wanted to note this just to explain why I didn't vote for him -- otherwise my very first vote would've gone for him.

My other choices were Edison, Gates, Lincoln and Wright brothers (although I would have voted to a few others as well if the limit hadn't been 5)

Bion: I voted for Gates not because the monopoly and policy of MS, but because of what he has achieved via his mind, including his incredible idea (the idea of GUI).

[ June 07, 2005, 19:10: Message edited by: Baronius ]

 

Well, I don't know, I usually know him referred to as German/Swiss scientiest. Anyway, I think the main bulk of his work was done in Switzerland and Germany not in the USA. I could be wrong here, but I don't know anything but his three theories. Could be more, of course.

 

I think this is a gret poll and all, but its missing someone! Wheres Hugh Heffner?!?!?!

 

@ Baronius - Yes, his full name is Benjamin Franklin, but we Americans usually just call him Ben.

I agree that Einstein is not an American per se. I didn't make the choices on the poll - I just took them from the program. I agree though that it seems odd that Einstein wasn't born in America if he is considered a great American. However, if you look at the rest of the list of 100, Arnold Swartenegger also made the list - just not the top 25. He is Austrian, but was included because he lived the "American Dream".

@ everyone - for those of you who do not know who End is referring to, Hugh Heffner is the founder and owner of Playboy maganize.

 

I think there is a huge difference between Schwarzenegger and Einstein. Schwarzenegger went from Styria to Bavaria to California and started his career in California and stayed there. As he made his way in the USA, I think one can consider him American.

Einstein on the other hand, is a typical ETH heini, that made his way through a patent office in Berne to Germany. He made his way in Europe. And as he was over 50, he moved to the USA.

He didn't make it in the USA, while Schwarzenegger lived and worked in the USA. Einstein came as a refugee with grey hair and a nobel price in his bag.

His physics are ETH and, more importantly, his political-philosophical outlooks are those of a Central-European without a home. In this, he is very similar to Hermann Hesse and others, that originated from the warring countries, yet were already living in Switzerland before the world wars broke out, people that prioritize pacifism and democracy. Not a "Swiss" outlook, but a homeless Central-European living in Switzerland outlook.

Wheras being a great "American" suggests having made it in the USA and being made in the USA. Schwarzenegger made it and was made it in the USA. He embraced the USA as a land of opportunity
for him. I doubt it's the same case for Einstein.

And I doubt if things were different and he moved to Italy at the age of 55, the Italians would consider him Italian. But that's just nitpicking.

 

Hey! When Arnie Schwartzenegger and Al Einstein raised that right hand and swore the oath of citizenship, they became Americans. Just like Rupert Murdoch and so many others have done.

And Gates and buds just found an idea that it's creator had decided not to use and ran with it. Just like Jobs and his associates. Apple just priced themselves out of the market.

 

Me. What with the brains, the plumbing, and the delusions of grandeur, who's better?

 

That's a too German concept for me

 

Where to start? Let's start with the fact that this was not from actual Church leaders, but a group that is designed specifically to discredit the Mormons to all who will listen. These groups have been known to protest outside the Convention Centre in Salt Laks City during the Semi Annual conference of the Church. These groups Scream and Shout at members (often using Impolite language), and have even resorted to openly mistreating sacred garments worn by Adult Members who've been to the Temple. Doing this to ANY other religious group would probably get them dispersed pronto (and maybe blown up or beaten in a riot if they chose the wrong target). Thus their credibility is

Secondly, there was no new information in that passage. I knew that the original three witnesses had left the church. Martin Harris, during the original translation, repeatedly asked permission to take part of the translated work to some men of learning, but Permission was refused. Ultimately, Free Agency was not overrulled, and 116 pages of translated work was taken. It was lost.

If you wish to introduce a website into this discussion to discredit something I say, then at least be sure of your sources. It is an insult to those of my faith that you would take the word of someone that hates what we stand for and claim it was from our religious leaders.

These Slanders are nothing new to us. From the beginning, people have hated us. In the early Days of the Church, mobs would gather to kill the members, destroy their homes, take their goods and run them out of the area. On June 27, 1844, a mob entered a jail in Carthage Illinois and cowardly murdered Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum. Brigham Young was called on to take over for Joseph Smith and lead the Saints to the Salt Lake Valley in Utah where they could live free of the persecution that ran them out of several states.

I simply ask that you get your facts straight if you want to attack my Religious beliefs. And if you seek to do so in God's Name, then consult Him in Prayer first.

 

Easy! Nowhere was he directly attacking your beliefs. Don't be too sensitive. He just cited a site that was a possible answer to your question.

I chose Lincoln. He led America through a difficult time in its history and became a role model for all men. He also wrote the Gettysburg Address. It wasn't only an inspirational piece. It set an ideal of what government should be.

I don't know if I could have voted for more than one. I also like Jefferson and Franklin. In retrospect, I wonder why I don't like any of the modern American leaders. Probably because they fall far short of the standards set by these men.

I also like Edison. Aside from inventing the lightbulb and the phonograph, his hard work and perseverance are admirable.

 

Ack!! Another one. Not only did I put in the initial post that you could vote for up to five (the lesson obviously being that nobody actually reads what I write), but it says quite clearly at the top of the poll itself (which you had to have read) "Choose 5". I really didn't think this would become so complicated.

 

Come now, you don't actually think we *read* these polls before voting do you?